[trevc]

It bothers me when people still believe that a Mac is somehow special hardware-wise, it's not. It's simply a different OS, and a more legacy free hardware platform (no BIOS, no serial ports, etc).

Apple hardware is nearly identical to what people refer to as a "PC", there's barely anything Mac about it (aside from generally better exterior build quality, etc). A Mac is an Intel CPU, Intel-like main board (sometimes they're very similar to some Gigabyte models), ATI or Nvidia graphics, Intel chipsets, and everything else is run of the mill "PC" components, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Everything from the USB chipset to the Realtek audio and ethernet chipsets in this Mac Mini is no different to what's in a Dell, Lenovo, etc.

People run custom generic intel hardware combinations all the time, and would have no issue obtaining support from most vendors. As long as you're running Windows and have drivers for your devices, a Mac is a "PC". The hardware and drivers all come from exactly the same places.

AugustH: Reading the above back to myself, it comes across a bit snappy/rude as just text. I just wanted to clarify it was not intended to! I know of at least one company which uses new IMacs as desktop computers and never uses Mac OS. They only run Windows 7 (and previously Vista). They're in the financial industry, and have never had issues with their software vendors supporting them.

If anyone ever pulls the "it's a Mac" quote and won't provide support, just tell them your system is Intel-based (meaning CPU, chipsets, and sometimes the graphics too). You could also be more specific and say something like: "It's a Core 2 Duo with an Nvidia Geforce 9400"

[cyberhusky]

Just to clear up some of the previous incorrect statements.

I only wrote what I was told by the guy who demonstrated TZ and MaxSea.

MaxSea TZ with all the modules (AIS, weather etc.) is more expensive than MacENC with a Macbook.

The full software with all charts for the US, weather, tides, currents, 3D, satellite imagery, etc is about $350 street price. You must be referring to the previous MaxSea software.

Check here to see that http://www.maxsea.fr/timezero/Products/S...fault.aspx

AIS, 3D, Routing etc. are optional at extra cost. At least for Europe and the Navigational Pack.

TZ costs 749 Euro (>1000 US Dollar) with ONE SMALL map of choice WITHOUT the AIS, ROUTING, FURUNO modules!

With a Wide chart like Western Europe you're at 1099 € (1638 US Dollar) that's a MacBook Pro 13" with MacENC and GPS and WorldChart charts for Europe!

http://maxsea.nexway.eu/fiche.html?REF=671783

And you still need to buy the charts.

Totally false for the US. There is a full range of international charts available and they cost extra.

Well the thread starter was talking about Australia and these charts aren't free. The NOAA US Charts are free for any nav app, it has nothing to do with MaxSea.

It true Maxsea TZ has great zoom in/out feature and the GUI is more suitable for touch-screens but that is due to FURUNO, who has bought MaxSea, to integrate TZ in their chart plotters.

TZ works exceptionally well (best, I think) with a wheeled mouse. Furuno, I believe, owns a minority stake in the company who owns MaxSea. It's interesting that the parent company has also just purchased Nobeltec from Jeppesen.

Even if Furuno only has a minority stake in MaxSeas, it was thze reason, TZ was done, because the old MaxSea isn't very usable on chart plotter, too many menus.

At our sailing club I did demo MacENC and a friend showed MaxSea TZ. He was impressed by the features of MacENC which costs only as much as an expansion module for MaxSea.

Again, different product. This is confusing the comparison.

Here in Europe the modules cost extra! It's true that the original MaxSea is even more expensive!

In fact the only thing missing in MacENC is a true logbook, and automatic route planning using tides, currents and weather infos which do cost separately.

Once you see the zooming and panning, there's just no comparison. And these are only a few of the capabilities that TZ has above MacENC. I'd expect this though since MacENC is a much less expensive product.

I don't think MaxSea TZ has so much more features as MacENC, except for the ones stated above. The 3D view is more gimmick and eye candy than it's really useful. As for the more detailed weather infos they're only GRIB data which you get from other services too, like Méteo France who delivers MaxSea too.

The biggest issue with MaxSea is the electronic hardware dongle, if you loose it you can't use MaxSea anymore!

Incorrect again. Points again to a comparison against a completely different software product. There is no hardware dongle at all. You activate the software using an internet connection. I think there's a manual way to do it too. That's it. I have no dongle or any type of special hardware.

That's what my friend told but than again it was the first version of TZ.

But what I do hear most times is that MaxSea TZ isn't as stable as MaxSea NavNet (the original MaxSea) and still does crash a lot.

I've been hitting it pretty hard and showing it to a bunch of people around the docks here in Charleston (we're currently at the Maritime Center continuing south in a couple of weeks). It hasn't crashed or had a problem yet...and I've really tried to make it crash.

It did crash 2 times during the demo. Our club donated a version of TZ to our ex-president. During his sailing trip in the Mediterranean he has bigger issues with the software not working correctly.

It's hard to know what you've been "hearing" or if it even involves the same software product. From all of your other comments, you're referring to something completely different and not MaxSea TimeZero.

In fact TZ and MaxSea were demoed. But I thought TZ would be another product but an evolution of MaxSea.

Edit: I just read that you do have the latest version of TZ (2 weeks or so). When I demoed MacENC and my friend TZ and MaxSea that was in March 2009. So a lot of change has since come to TZ.

[trevc]

It's actually Apple that refers to the green button as a the "zoom button". Strange but true!

[bobetter]

Going back to your original query, it seems that no, there are not any Mac users running MaxSeaTZ.

I vote that you go ahead and get it (with all the same functionality of MacENC, AIS, GRIB support, etc...), test it HARD and get back to us.

...no snarkiness intended, I really would like to know! I ran the original MaxSea on a Mac many, many years ago and was very disappointed when they ceased support and went over to the Dark Side.

[trevc]

I thought MacOS WAS the dark side?

I'm quite platform neutral myself. I much prefer 10.6 for getting work done and the entire user experience. It seems far superior. However, if a nav station is better suited to running Windows 7, I'll certainly consider that side too. I have a test install on the Mini, and find that Windows 7 is much easier to configure so that it doesn't bother you with useless crap like "Windows security center". I generally find the whole Windows UI is far too in-your-face. Vista was the worst offender.

I'm currently leaning towards buying TZ (the navigator edition), but would like to continue with a bit more reading/research first. In particular, I'd like to hear of more real-world experiences.

Once everything is sorted out, I'd be more than happy to share my experiences. I'll also try my best to stress-test everything.

[trevc]

One useful comment I came across on another forum:

I've just had this installed on my laptop (Ethrnet) and have found it intuitive and interactive in ways not easily replicated at the MFD. I'm brand new to marine electronics, having skipped from sextants, RDFs, and the rare Loran, to today's world. The new MaxSea Time Zero took me 5 minutes to navigate through, with a nice sense of customization. Maybe this is par for the course, as I have no real reference, but as a lifelong Mac user, it's nice to see an intuitive interface. We just took our 44' catamaran 'ile de Grace' on a 145 miles overnight down the Bay to Norfolk, on our way south for a 2-3 year circumnavigation. (I'm also carrying paper charts).

So far, so good.

[ebgb]

A lot of your posting was like this - "I've heard...". There's some value in that type of info but everyone needs to remember that it's not necessarily valid. At least in the US courts, hearsay isn't considered evidence. It's a shame to trash an entire new product line because of what you might have heard from others.

ok I'll rephrase it. Instead of 'I've heard', does "In conversation with several commercial skippers, stood in the wheelhouse of their trawlers whilst removing TZ and re-installing Maxsea Version 12 the following issues came up"

make you happier??

[trevc]

TZ is an entirely new piece of software. I recently read that it shares no code with the legacy Maxsea (12, etc). Nothing in common whatsoever. It was a complete re-write from the ground up, which probably explains some of the earlier teething issues as well.

Do you think there's a chance these skippers simply wanted to stick with they already knew? some people are pretty stubborn when it comes to software

[bobetter]

For what it's worth, MaxseaTZ will not yet run on Windows 7.

Furuno FAQ here:

http://www.furunousa.com/ProductDocument...ro-FAQ.pdf

Looks to me like it's gonna cost you around $1500 to get the full-blown version (including the routing module) for the US. Getting around the hardware requirements will probably also take a few bucks.

Interesting discussion over at Panbo's....

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2009/10/ma..._what.html

[ActiveCaptain]

Looks to me like it's gonna cost you around $1500 to get the full-blown version...

The software is about $1,000 if you want it integrated into a NavNet3D network on your boat. That allows all radar to be integrated on the display and adds another MFD to the entire network. That's not really in the same class of software that we're discussing here at all.

TZ Navigator is $350. That's it.

I'll never understand the desire by some here to trash everything that isn't one of a couple of products. It's odd. The world is a wonderful place with lots of new things. Check it out and embrace it! New products come - some are really revolutionary and worthy of attention. TZ is such a product - you'll see.

[bobetter]

I think that if you go back and re-read the entire thread, you'll find that there is no trashing happening. We are discussing the various issues regarding some new SW, it's economic viability in regards to a potential purchase/install and the various options available.

If you have some additional input vis a vis the real time on the water performance results, I'm sure all the posters would appreciate hearing about them.

[AugustH]

No offense taken. I have a personal preference for the Mac, because I think it's a better OS than Windows. I know this will limit my choices on software, that's just the way it is.

Unfortunately front line support staff usually run on a script and ask typical questions like "is it a Dell? An HP? A (insert your favorite PC)? Sorry we can't help you" since they won't know what a generic intel-based computer is nor how to help you.

But back to the topic, if MaxSea TZ is THAT much better than anything else, then it sets a new bar for Mac developers, and we need to step up and improve our software to match, or exceed what they've done. Might be hard, we're not a huge corporation with many programmers to throw at the project, but we can but try!

[GPSNavX]

Once the decision is made to reformat the government provided chart data into a proprietary format it puts a larger resource load on the developer/provider. The chart data must now be reformatted, verified for accuracy, and distributed (hosted) in a timely manner. Also the provider has to be able to handle discrepancy reports.

The gains of course are performance and enhanced features using the optimized chart data, but also the option to charge more money for the optimized chart data.

This scheme works great for larger organizations that have the resources to keep the proprietary chart data updated.

[Jade]

TZ Navigator is $350. That's it.

The Defender site does indeed list the new TimeZero Navigator by Maxsea for $346.99 but also states "TimeZero Navigator is an entry-level system developed for the US market". MaxSea's site lists TimeZero Navigator Pack for 749 € (incl. VAT) that includes "One chosen MapMedia .mm3d data area".

[ebgb]

TZ is an entirely new piece of software. I recently read that it shares no code with the legacy Maxsea (12, etc). Nothing in common whatsoever. It was a complete re-write from the ground up, which probably explains some of the earlier teething issues as well.

Do you think there's a chance these skippers simply wanted to stick with they already knew? some people are pretty stubborn when it comes to software

possibly. some are a die hard bunch and still have decca plots they use :o and have disk after disk of routes done in every flavour of plotter imaginable. maxsea 12 opens these no problem. TZ doesn't. I'm talking systems like Trax, Fishmaster shipmate etc

but they do like to have the latest toys though and aren't shy of spending a few quid. most that run maxsea v12 have also bought olex (£4000 +) to run along side maxsea as maxsea's 3d stuff sucks by comparision. I reckon some of them were hoping the TZ 3D would be a big improvement so they could drop Olex (which is also a Linux app with all its added complications)

[ActiveCaptain]

But back to the topic, if MaxSea TZ is THAT much better than anything else, then it sets a new bar for Mac developers, and we need to step up and improve our software to match, or exceed what they've done.

EXACTLY! That's what I'm saying. The first step for developers should be to just see the thing running. It will make your jaw drop. It did to me and I've been doing this a long time.

The second step is to figure out how they did it and figure out ways to develop your own capabilities. There is just no going back to the old way once you've seen the new no matter how many arrows you try to shoot into it. How many people really want to navigate their boat today without chart quilting? We all expect to have a seamless view of the nautical data.

[trevc]

So, I've been reading and reading about TZ user experiences, trying to decide if I'm going to dish out $1150 freedom-chips for a piece of fancy software. I already have a MacENC license, but I'm not sure it's very well suited to a smaller (1024x768) touchscreen. It's also a bit slow, but this might be due to the older-style Navionics charts from Chartworld. I still wish there was a way to use the mouse-wheel for zooming. The mouse-wheel is effectively useless in MacENC. Very slowly panning with the wheel doesn't seem like a very logical default behaviour. Perhaps I've just overlooked a way to reassign it? (apologies for rambling off-topic...)

Since this will be our main navigation platform aside from paper charts, I'm still leaning towards going with Maxsea TZ. I'm waiting on a few answers from Maxsea support regarding the local charts, weather, and if there's any upgrade path to the "explorer" edition. There's also some conflicting information out there regarding the AIS module. Some Furuno docs say it's included in both TZ editions, but the online store is selling it separately. The regional software and pricing differences are pretty frustrating. I also don't understand why US pricing is 1/4 the price of other regions.

Maxsea sales hasn't been very quick with info so far, and the response to my first inquiry was very brief. There's doesn't seem to be any way to email the sales team from their homepage, everything goes to tech-support (which then need to relay to sales). Weird. A lot of their website also reads like a half-assed translation from French.

Here's some pros/cons I've come up with so far

Pros:
- Likely the fastest charting program currently available
- Satellite and 3D data available without needing an internet connection
- A modern feature-set and code base
- The wind/tides/current (grib-based) downloading is seamless and fast. Supports internet downloading from Maxsea, or an email request for Sailmail, etc.
- Efficient, touch-screen friendly UI (plenty of large finger targets with the "dock" style interface elements.

Cons:
- Price (outside of the US). $1150AUD for the "Navigator" edition
- Windows-based, although I don't fault Maxsea for this. They're catering to a way larger market, and almost all of the other nav/boat-related software is Windows based (from Airmail to Ugrib, the n2k instruments packages, etc). Luckily Macs run Windows 7 flawlessly. Apple even provides all of the drivers in one easy package!
- Windows 7 not currently supported, but this is being added in a few days with the 1.8 update. Also, I'm quite confident it would run in 7 right now with "Vista compatibility" ticked.

The yacht we've purchased has a Raymarine C80 plotter and big selection of Navionics gold cards. There's also a decent Garmin plotter, and Raymarine radar. I'd probably this stuff to help pay for TZ and the new outside touchscreen. I much prefer the idea of maintaining regular computer hardware than a dedicated and very proprietary C80. I could easily replace parts in the Mac Mini, replace the whole unit, or use a different computer entirely. If I'm going to have any gadgets, then I want to be as self-sufficient as possible with it. I don't like "contact Raymarine" to be my only option when something goes wrong.

[AugustH]

I've been looking into the new features of Snow Leopard, and Grand Central Dispatch (GCD) and accessing the GPU for computations show a pretty hefty increase in application speed. It will be interesting to incorporate them into Mr. Tides, as a lot of the calculations I do can be multi-threaded. If things work out as I hope they will, you might see us running circles around MaxSea (depending on the machine, of course).

[trevc]

Ok... wow. There's no polite way to say this: Maxsea sales support is f'ing hopeless. It has taken me over a week trying to get answers to some simple pre-purchase questions. I was happy to see a new email today, and had hoped it was finally a useful response. Here's what they wrote:

We are available to answer all your questions. Unfortunately, to answer your question more efficiently, we need the following information :

-The Dongle number or the serial number
.....

and so on, and so on.

This is AFTER my second email attempt had been "forwarded to sales" by another person. So, make whatever conclusions you want.

Hopefully it's a completely different department writing their software

This was my second round of unsuccessful email communications with them. I still don't know any more than when I started.

[ActiveCaptain]

Hopefully it's a completely different department writing their software

The Paris Boat Show started last weekend and I'd bet it's a pretty busy one for their sales people. You might try the US sales group - they might be more responsive unless they're at the show too.

[trevc]

Thanks for the heads up. I sent another email to FurunoUSA/Maxsea.

By the way, cute doggies

[trevc]

I've ordered Maxsea Time Zero. I ended up getting it from the US instead of locally (Defender). The US version includes the AIS module, and is a fraction of the price at $346USD.

I also ordered the extra Australian charts. I ended up saving a little over $1800AUD. This is factoring in shipping, exchange rates, etc.

[trevc]

I have Maxsea TZ running on the Mac Mini. I'm testing it out with the included US raster/vector/3d/satellite chart data. My order for the East Australia charts is in progress.

First impression: Without exaggerating, It's entirely in a league of its own. Very impressive performance and a very polished user interface. I saw all of the hype and videos. I didn't really expect everything to perform the same in person. They've really raised the bar. It's even better than I expected (at least for the US charting area).

The initial application takes a while to load up (comparable to an older version of Photoshop). Not quick, but not too bad. There's no noticeable loading of anything afterwards, it's all seamless regardless of whatever you try to do within the application. I've tried my best to overload the software or trigger a crash, it's been totally solid and stays fast. I had multiple weather overlay animations for a huge region going, AIS overlays(via marinetraffic.com), depth contours, 3D, satellite overlays, and a whole bunch of fake routes drawn all over a region. It was a ridiculous mess of information. The app barely slowed down. Nice!

- The just-released 1.8.1 update was a 551MB download, and appeared to replace the entire install. My experiences are based on this newer version.

- It's quite processor intensive. The Mac Mini internal fan runs most of the time. I assume this would contribute to increased power usage on a boat DC system. I've really been pushing the limits, so perhaps it's not as bad in a traditional chart-plotter role. Even if you don't care about "3D" bells and whistles, this software would still be better as a traditional 2D plotter/navigation app than anything else I've seen so far.

Any nav software developer (regardless of platform) really needs to check out MSTZ asap, to not do so would be pretty negligent.

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My only remaining concern is the Aussie chart data. I hope the experience is the same as with the USA charts/sat imagery.

Edit: I just wanted to add that this is the $346USD version which includes AIS support. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to just how much this software costs. So far, at lest in my opinion, it seems to be a very good value at that price point.

Cheers

Trev

[ActiveCaptain]

First impression: Without exaggerating, It's entirely in a league of its own...

Any nav software developer (regardless of platform) really needs to check out MSTZ asap, to not do so would be pretty negligent.

And THAT is the reaction I'm seeing over and over again. It raises the bar by a large degree.

What I love most is that this is a version 1 product right now. I can't wait to see what comes next.

[trevc]

There seems to be a huge amount of misinformation out there regarding Maxsea TZ, on this forum and others.

Just to clarify some points:
- Through a Furuno dealer it's $346USD for the Navigator edition, including full AIS support and weather overlays world-wide (which are very impressive).

- All editions of Maxsea TZ will display information from NMEA instruments. Depth, speed, AIS targets, wind, etc etc. There's a whole selection of nice digital/analogue gauges. The entire UI is completely flexible. (I'm not sure if N2K is supported, because I don't have any N2K gear to test.)

- The recent 1.8.1 upgrade supports Windows 7 32bit and 64bit editions.

- There's no hardware dongles required for any version of Maxsea Time Zero. There's a serial number and online activation, the same method Adobe and others use.

- The US retail package includes the software DVD and 5 cartography DVDs. NOAA raster, Navionics vectors, satellite imagery, and 3d land/bathymetric are all included for the US coastlines.

- Additional cartography by region (and free satellite imagery) is downloaded directly from Maxsea/Mapmedia. Only the unlock code needs to be purchased from a Furuno dealer. Be sure to buy from the US (Defender), unless you want to pay more than double the price through a foreign dealer for the same code.

This is unrelated to Maxsea TZ, but concerns the difference between 32bit and 64bit versions of windows:
I decided to run Windows 7 32bit even though I have 4GB of system memory. I applied a hack that unlocks the ability of 32bit Windows to use up to 64gb system memory. The memory restrictions in 32bit versions of windows are purely licensing based, not a hardware or real software limitation.

The legality of modyfying the OS in such a way is a questionable, not that I care either way.

The Mac Mini is an awesome platform for running this software, and has handled it all very well so far. I highly recommend the Mini.