Of course if you desire coverage
outside of the USA - Caribbean, Cuba, Central/South America, Europe, Asia/Pacific, etc., then iNavX for iPhone or iPad supports the complete X-Traverse library of charts. See
http://x-traverse.com/our-pricing
Of course there's much more to it than picking an area with good raster and Navionics support. A big part of the picture is usability and other features providing additional benefits. The reality is that few people are going to use the current generation products as a primary navigation tool. So the real question is, which product features give the most utility when actually in a boat?
Screen shots taken at a desk don't usually provide the best real world examples. Not many boats travel due north all the time. A different course/heading up would make a much different example.
It appears the Motion-X and the Navimatics app use bundled charts generated from the NOAA ENCs (No idea the version). While NOAA offers 100% US waters coverage in NOAA ENC format, much if it is not at "Harbor" detail so it leaves much to be desired. I hear NOAA is back to converting all the RNCs to ENCs so over time (before the next big federal budget slash) this will be come less of a problem. Rotating the chart does not provide for any more chart detail.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:So the real question is, which product features give the most utility when actually in a boat?
Bathymetic data on the charts I use while sailing for one. And that, for me, far outweighs a course-up feature.
Coastal Explorer and MaxSea Time Zero use the NOAA vector charts too. For a great many harbors in the US, excellent detail is provided. My blog gives some shots of different places - not cherry picked - and for many, the data is better than the corresponding raster chart.
There are many providers of nautical chart data and any of these apps can certainly be expanded to include additional charts. I think you'll see that happen over time. And again, a lot depends on the intended use. As a tide an current display, nothing beats Navionics in my opinion.
I still think that quilted, seamless display and chart rotation are the features that most boaters will demand. When they pay for an app and find out that it only shows the single chart in the default orIentation with no rotation at all, many will stop using it. If Apple allowed refunds, I think there would be quite a few requests.
Well, I for one, am extremely impressed with iNavX on the iPad.
However, I would suggest that potential purchasers of the product look at the readily available feedback on its App Store page (summary screenshot attached), rather than listening to individuals promoting or drum-banging.
[image]http://www.macsailing.net/fbb/fbbuploads/1273733300-Screen_shot_2010-05-13_at_07.47.24.png[/image]
In the interests of objectivity, I've just been reading through user feedback on the App Store page. There is some negative feedback (1*), so we should look at this... The main points raised are:
- [li]Useability is difficult (valid point)[/li][li]Charts are too expensive (not iNavX's fault)[/li][li]iNavX is too expensive[/li][li]General Unspecified Rants[/li]
There's no mention of chart quilting or course up as being major omission, so I think it's fair to say that this isn't a major feature that the public are crying out for.. personally, I find course up rather confusing, being a paper charts guy.
Anyway, if you want "course up" display simply rotate your iPad / iPhone so that the vessel arrow is facing in the direction of travel, and voila! Course up!
88 people out of 171 gave iNavX 5*s. That, to me, says it all.
ReeferJon Wrote:Anyway, if you want "course up" display simply rotate your iPad / iPhone so that the vessel arrow is facing in the direction of travel, and voila! Course up!
:thumbup: Ah, ah, I am agree with you! I am a long time boater and never used my paper charts turned right or left or down on my chart table! Why with chartplotter?
ReeferJon Wrote:There's no mention of chart quilting or course up as being major omission, so I think it's fair to say that this isn't a major feature that the public are crying out for..
I think you missed a few of the reviews. There are multiple reviews that say something about rotation.
But that's beyond the point. Can you imagine any chartplotter today that didn't rotate the display as an option? Can you imagine any chartplotter where you come to the edge of the chart and it doesn't show the next chart quilted in? As you pointed out, there are a lot of "usability" complaints. Rotation and quilting are part of what those are about. Most of the reviews are just a paragraph after all.
I think that "Buzzzz"'s review said it the shortest and the best: "Definitely should not be your primary navigation software. I think it should have cost about $19.99."
We should be demanding more from these products. At first blush it's wonderful that they can just display a nautical chart. But they need to do more than that. The chartplotter manufacturers learned that. It's time for the iPhone developers to do the same thing.
It's time for someone to make an iPhone/iPad app that truly can be a chartplotter replacement.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on chart rotation being a fundamental requirement, but I understand that it is something that people might take for granted as core functionality. I'm sure it will come in time.
I'm confused with your point on Chart Quilting though.. I use iNavX with Navionics UK charts and Navionics's own iPhone product and they both appear to use exactly the same rendering engine for cartography, and I've never had a problem on either with the chart quilting; the display of the cartography is actually better on the iPhone / iPad than on my $2000 Raymarine plotter.
I agree that there is a lot more potential in the iPad and the iPhone for navigation software, but that's a good thing, and I, for one, enjoy making positive suggestions as to future functionality (integrated tidal flows please!!)
iNavX is the first navigation product to launch on the iPad with a half-decent range of supporting cartography (for non-US users), and has a functionality that you would pay hundreds of dollars for in a PC product. How many other iPhone / mobile apps can we name that support multiple types of cartography, Wifi-streaming of instrument data, AIS tracking and Grib weather display in one package? And all this for $50..?
iNavX is a pioneering product on a brand new platform. Yes, there are areas that should be improved, but I'm confident that these will be developed over time; not because I have any visibility of Rich's plans for iNavX, but because so many new requirements that users on this forum have requested previously have been implemented in later versions of MacENC and GPSNavX that I've lost count.
So lets recognise a real achievement in the launch of iNavX on the iPad.. and look forward to many updates that will no doubt resolve many of our requests.
And remember.. you wouldn't criticise the Wright Brothers' Flyer because it didn't have comfy seats and stewardesses....
ReeferJon Wrote:And remember.. you wouldn't criticise the Wright Brothers' Flyer because it didn't have comfy seats and stewardesses....
You're right. But once the plane was off the ground consistently, I'll bet someone looked at it and said, "you know, it might be better if you didn't have to lay on your stomach to fly that thing..."
Hint: Active Captain is rolled into both TimeZero and Coastal Explorer now. Jeff, why don't you just come out and say it? Your ulterior motives are bigger than your boat!
ActiveCaptain Wrote:You're right. But once the plane was off the ground consistently, I'll bet someone looked at it and said, "you know, it might be better if you didn't have to lay on your stomach to fly that thing..."
That's what I've been doing wrong all these years, laying on my stomach whilst sailing!!!
George Wrote:Hint: Active Captain is rolled into both TimeZero and Coastal Explorer now. Jeff, why don't you just come out and say it? Your ulterior motives are bigger than your boat!
Yes, if you go thru this entire forum, it becomes pretty obvious what is going on, apps that are integrated are "thumbs up", apps that are not are, well, not. You can pretty much see the progress of AC discussions with SW providers, they'll get a great mention here when they start talking to him. Maybe the solution is AC integration with all the GPSNavX apps? Or (light bulb going off over head) maybe what's going on here is "AC rejection"??? C'mon fellas, come clean!!
My initial writing about Time Zero was before there was anything going on with MaxSea. I think that Coastal Explorer is an incredible product - I've been using it myself for about 5 years. I used GPSNavX and MacENC and thought they were meager products. I then bought iNavX hoping to use it on my boat and found it to be the worst navigation product I have ever used. Of all the products I've bought for the iPhone, that's the one I'd like my money back on.
I've written numerous times about Navionics in a positive way although I don't like the way they implemented rotation. I think it's the product that people expected to get in functionality when they purchased iNavX. Did anyone notice that the Navionics product was lowered to $4.99 for a day the other day?
I'm currently talking to Fugawi/X-Traverse. If all I were doing was sucking up, don't you think I would be a lot more forgiving of the products that they endorse?
I've written positively about PolarNavy/PolarView. I'm hoping that it can become the Mac product I'd like to use. I like the track he's on and I love the performance of the software. If you have a Mac and use nautical charts, you should purchase this product now - worst case, you'll have a backup product using standard nautical charts for a few dollars. They need the support to continue their development because I'll bet in 5 years, they're the standard Mac solution.
I generally talk positively about ActiveCaptain. I make sure that my postings have my signature so there's no question about my affiliation. I'm biased but I think I have great reason to be biased. No one has the data that we have - marinas, anchorages, boat ramps, bridges, hazards, etc - in size or quality. When Furuno decided to pick a point-of-interest product for their devices, they selected us. Obviously other software companies have done the same thing and there are other hardware companies looking and deciding right now.
I was just interviewed for an upcoming article from a major boating magazine titled something like "The End of Paper Guidebooks". It talks about why it makes no sense to have an out-of-date-the-moment-it's-printed paper guidebook any longer. The reason is ActiveCaptain. They also like Wikipedia for getting general information about an area and town web sites for getting local event information.
For the iPhone/iPad I've said numerous times that each product has something to offer - although again, given the desire to have a raster product, I'd select Memory-Map over iNavX any day of the week. For these mobile markets it makes sense to have multiple products serving different uses because there's no one comprehensive product yet. Recently I wrote in Panbo that Navionics has the best tide and current handling. Every boater should have it just for that function alone. It should be noted that Navionics has no ActiveCaptain support and in fact competes against AC with their marina icons. [Come on Navionics - you know you want our data!]
For some reason, there are a few people on this forum who attempt to pick apart every sentence I write. I'm sure they'll have a field day with this posting. The truth is that I write what I believe. Having someone with an alternative view is usually a good thing. Otherwise you only need one person posting here. Dare I say that I'm probably responsible for an increase in postings here just because of the discussions I enter.
I have likes and dislikes just as much as everyone else. My opinions are no more important than anyone else's. I have a fair amount of experience after being involved with this industry as an insider for a while and I also live on my boat for most of the year (9 months over the last 12). I speak at a wide variety of rendezvous, conferences, and shows. I'm often quoted or written about in the major blogs and magazines (Passagemaker/November '09 and Yachting/April '10 both did articles about me including my picture if you'd like to see me!) I received the first BWI (Boat Writer's International) award for a web-based article series on using mobile phones on boats. All of these things help to bring a different perspective to the discussions. You might not agree with my point of view. If so, absolutely debate it with facts. Instead of accusing me of having "ulterior" motives, challenge the facts of what I'm saying. Stop attacking me personally. Start attacking the discussion.
Debate is a good thing. It helps people learn and uncover all of the truth. Isn't that the value of having a forum like this?
Active Captain:
I think that if you look at the debates that have occurred as a result of your postings, you'll find no personal attacks but rather major disagreements with what you say. It is also patently obvious that you have a bias towards SW that you are affiliated with and that you often write favorably about that SW BEFORE it is apparent that you have an affiliation - perfect case in point was your gushing about MSTZ with no mention of your interest....that post was removed, unfortunately.
You also fail to realize that many here focus on the NAVIGATIONAL attributes of SW, not it's suitability as a guidebook. Some of us sail regularly offshore, hazard info about the ICW or it's bridge openings is not at the top of our list. Most of that info is, by the way, available in the Coast Pilot and/or the LNMs in the US and from other countries' maritime publications.
Yes, we all have likes and dislikes but the majority realize that personal preference does not make some piece of SW good or bad, just because YOU don't like something, does not make it BAD. I don't know you as a sailor at all so why should I take your recommendations seriously? A few articles about guidebooks doesn't make you an authority or any more pertinent than Joe Bayliner zooming up and down Barnegat Bay.
I would think that your efforts would be better spent consulting with the parties with whom you have a relationship in an attempt to improve their product and perhaps steer it in a direction that is to your liking. It is obvious that GPSNavX has a pretty clear idea of the direction in which IT is headed ( and going along pretty successfully it seems) and that your constant berating of GPSNavX, MacENC and iNavX do nothing to furthur your cause which I can only assume is have AC included in the package. The only other possible explanation for your attitude towards it is, once again, obvious.
Lastly, please be advised that any PT's you send me will be posted to the public forum, edited of course so as to remain within the rules of decorum.
Any time you refer to my attitude, you're addressing me. How about addressing some of the specific things I've mentioned in my postings? I don't make postings where I say that I don't like a certain product just because. I give reasons and facts.
And if the readership here reflects the general boating and cruising population, the percentage of people who are cruising along coastlines and within waterways greatly eclipses the number doing offshore passages. I'd venture a guess that 90% of the people cruising coastlines haven't even looked at a LNTM is 5+ years. We're working with the Coast Guard now on automating the process and those are the numbers they tell me about their readership.
When I have a complaint about a product, I never said it makes it BAD (your capitalization). It might very well be the perfect thing for others. I'd be happy to describe more fully what I find to be frustrating about iNavX - that appears to be your argument with me. I've already made the points available to Rich and he even fixed one of them. You jump to conclusions about what I do, who I communicate with, and what my intents are.
Try to concentrate on the products and the facts and less about me. I think that's what the readers here want.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Any time you refer to my attitude, you're addressing me. How about addressing some of the specific things I've mentioned in my postings? I don't make postings where I say that I don't like a certain product just because. I give reasons and facts.
I don't think anyone has actually referred to your attitude. But I'm curious as to what relevance that has to the discussion? You give YOUR reasons and facts as YOU interpret them. The only way to have discourse is to respond to what YOU say. Numerous posters have already responded to your specific criticisims (sp), most disagree with you.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:And if the readership here reflects the general boating and cruising population, the percentage of people who are cruising along coastlines and within waterways greatly eclipses the number doing offshore passages. I'd venture a guess that 90% of the people cruising coastlines haven't even looked at a LNTM is 5+ years. We're working with the Coast Guard now on automating the process and those are the numbers they tell me about their readership.
So, if the readership here does not reflect those demographics, maybe this isn't the right forum for you? I am a licensed Mariner and as such I am required to have onboard current LNMs, up-to-date charts, light lists and Coast Pilots. Just because 90% of boaters (your figure) don't practice good seamanship doesn't make it right. Do you keep current on LMNs?
.....just so I understand you, are you saying that the USCG is considering some form of integration with Active Captain?
ActiveCaptain Wrote:When I have a complaint about a product, I never said it makes it BAD (your capitalization). It might very well be the perfect thing for others. I'd be happy to describe more fully what I find to be frustrating about iNavX - that appears to be your argument with me. I've already made the points available to Rich and he even fixed one of them. You jump to conclusions about what I do, who I communicate with, and what my intents are.
I think your choice of words ("complain") is accurate here. You have "described more fully" what you find frustrating about iNaX ad naseum (sp), I don't think it serves any purpose to repeat it.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Try to concentrate on the products and the facts and less about me. I think that's what the readers here want.
With all due respect, I don't really give a hoot about you, I take exception with much of what you write, both in terms of accuracy and open-mindedness.
bobetter Wrote:.....just so I understand you, are you saying that the USCG is considering some form of integration with Active Captain?
Absolutely. We have much integrated already and are working on a fully automated, cron-based back-end server to process LNTM as they are produced. Many of our hazard markers show some of this initial integration already.
As for the rest of bobetter's posting, I think it will serve the community here better if I no longer respond to Bob Etter's continual jabs at my postings. If someone else has a question, I'm happy to answer it. Let's just keep it civil and respectful.
So you are basically presenting USCG data in Active Captain?
I get automatic notices from USCG for LNM amongst other things, interesting that there has been no mention from their end...I think it's a great idea, BTW.
ReeferJon Wrote:There's no mention of chart quilting or course up as being major omission, so I think it's fair to say that this isn't a major feature that the public are crying out for.. personally, I find course up rather confusing, being a paper charts guy.
With Memory-Map's new app release, every single marine navigation applications for the iPhone or iPad has course up. Except one.
Navionics - added in last release.
Navimatics - had it from initial release
Memory-Map - added in last release.
MotionX GPS - added it in previous release
iNavX - missing
Even MotionX GPS for $2.99 has it. It's a very basic user-interface feature that creates a specific benefit for the user - correlation of the chart to the real world by just looking ahead.
ReeferJon Wrote:Anyway, if you want "course up" display simply rotate your iPad / iPhone so that the vessel arrow is facing in the direction of travel, and voila! Course up!
You shouldn't have to literally stand on your head in order to obtain something that even the most basic apps have. MotionX GPS is 1/16th the price of iNavX. Since iNavX is the most expensive app of the group (not including the potential desire to purchase additional vector charts or the fees associated with the X-Perverse feature), shouldn't it have this generally desired ability?
Seriously Jon, what am I missing?
ActiveCaptain Wrote:[Seriously Jon, what am I missing?
You are missing the fact that you are the ONLY one that has posted that course up is needed. Why is it such an issue for you?
ActiveCaptain Wrote:X-Perverse
Now, that's just childish, doncha think?
Course Up will be supported in iNavX (targeting version 3.02). I have not received much demand for it probably because most realize with raster charts that besides for the geography all the chart text (i.e. soundings) rotates making it more difficult to read. Furthermore the iPhones GPS and/or compass just isn't that spot on. Specifically SOG and COG are not that accurate at lower speeds (under 5 knots) on iPhone. iPad is much better on the GPS side, but its compass is still very error prone. At times, I can see 30 degrees of difference between iPhone and iPad compass. iPad compass appears to be very sensitive to the angle held. So course up comes with some caveats of less than perfect accuracy.
I added Course Up to MacENC years ago and I don't think I have received one email in regards to it either pro or con.
I have Navionics app for iPad and it does not appear to support course up like their app for iPhone.
bobetter Wrote:You are missing the fact that you are the ONLY one that has posted that course up is needed. Why is it such an issue for you?
Because most people want it and expect it. It's a glaring issue that iNavX doesn't have it proved by the point that every other navigation product for the iPhone and iPad has it, including a $2.99 product.
bobetter Wrote:X-Perverse - Now, that's just childish, doncha think?
Ha! I missed that. It was the iPad that did that. I even re-read it and didn't notice it. I apologize for that typo. X-Traverse is a good attempt at providing a sharing mechanism between products and devices. I've considered supporting it and Robin has asked me about it. I'm not yet sure what the advantages would be today for ActiveCaptain but it is something I'm considering.
GPSNavX Wrote:Course Up will be supported in iNavX (targeting version 3.02).
There's the money shot! Excellent! I honestly look forward to it.
Next, could you do something about that chart-to-chart panning that I wrote you about offline? Fixing that would make me want to use the product. Quilting is certainly a less needed function and I can live without it.
bobetter Wrote:From a previous posting:
Lastly, you have made a guidebook. It is not navigation software by any stretch of the imagination. Why would anyone who develops and maintains serious, full function marine navigation software be interested in your input? Please don't take that the wrong way...if you were to produce something, perhaps I'd take you seriously.
Actually Bob, I've written 5 commercial navigation products, 2 of which are currently being sold every day now (well, the Palm one has seen sales fallen off). In addition, I've done major user-interface consulting projects for the largest companies producing marine navigation products.
But even without my experience, I'm not a conductor yet I can tell when the symphony isn't playing right. Having a navigation product in today's market without course-up display is like a very badly tuned orchestra playing a piece very poorly. It's sort of obvious.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Actually Bob, I've written 5 commercial navigation products, 2 of which are currently being sold every day now (well, the Palm one has seen sales fallen off). In addition, I've done major user-interface consulting projects for the largest companies producing marine navigation products.
So now I guess the obvious question is, do you actually know how to write code and did you do so for your "5 commercial navigation products"? A simple yes or no answer will suffice... along with a mention of the products.
bobetter Wrote:So now I guess the obvious question is, do you actually know how to write code and did you do so for your "5 commercial navigation products"? A simple yes or no answer will suffice... along with a mention of the products.
I'm honestly not sure what you're asking.
Yes, I've been writing software for a very long time (37 years now) and I wrote 100% of the Outdoor Navigator and ActiveCaptain Mobile applications for multiple platforms. ActiveCaptain Mobile runs on processors as slow as 5% of the speed of the iPhone. It supports course up display and simple-to-use chart-to-chart panning. When I suggest features like that, I completely understand the technology, trigonometry, and development issues of making them happen.
Which applications (navigation or otherwise) have you written Bob? What commercial software do you have on the market?