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The Navimatics app for Seattle has an overall two-star rating and the last review says "Waste of time even for free".

AugustH Wrote:The Navimatics app for Seattle has an overall two-star rating and the last review says "Waste of time even for free".

I'm not really sure what that proves. Should every app be judged by a single review? Or even a couple of reviews? I doubt that you'd like some reviews posted of your app.

I got my iPad 3G - we pulled into Charleston today and the marina is just a few blocks from the Apple store. I was lucky enough to grab one of the few available. It's very nice - GPS seems to work pretty well. It's wonderful seeing larger chart areas. I'm rather unimpressed with iPhone emulation. It works but the display leaves a lot to be desired. Chart apps really need full iPad support. It makes a big difference.

As long as it's been raised, I'll discuss some of my feelings about the different navigation products I write about on here. I could use the practice with the iPad keyboard. I'm not looking to pick a fight - I'll stick to the facts as I see them which means this is all my opinions.

I've been involved with the Mac and Apple for a long time. My wife used to work for Apple before I hired her away - I'm the one who got her interested in the company. We had our first Mac in 1985 and I did a fair amount of development on it. A product that I wrote the software for (Wacom digitizing tablet) won an Eddy award back in 1989. My first big company started out writing only Mac software and we sold a tremendous amount of it.

The bottom line - I've always loved the Mac and have always been a big supporter of using their products.

As I got involved with boating navigation products after my last company was acquired, I was shocked by the poor choices available for the Mac. There is no Coastal Explorer, MaxSea TZ, or high end product with a rich user-interface and quality design. All that has been available is inexpensive, low-end products. Instead of running native apps, most serious boaters that I see with Macs run MaxSea TZ, Coastal Explorer, or Nobeltec on their Macs. What I think is really needed is to motivate more developers to write new applications. I am so happy to see Gene working on PolarView and native Mac support. HE'S the future. He's the one with great ideas and the ability to make them happen technically. He deserves support on this board and everyone reading it should try his products.

In short, I think there is too much acceptance for the Mac products that are currently available. They aren't good enough in my opinion and I think the one site that specializes in Mac software for marine navigations (this site) needs one person, at least, who will show other developers that there are potentials here - and large ones.

This extends into the iPhone world too. I believe I've used all of the iPhone apps in real navigation situations. They all are pretty meager, again in my opinion. We should demand a lot more and not just have a love fest over a couple of products that so miss the mark. Navionics is almost there. They're missing just a few things. I think that Navimatics has a good shot at it too and I've enjoyed Bill's continuous improvement. I'm tickled to see his product work in full iPad resolution today. I loved the way he handles chart rotation - without question the best of any iPhone app including Navionics new release. And yet, Navimatics almost never gets mentioned here. It's just sad.

I stand behind my review of iNavX. And when Rich fixed something that really bothered me, I updated my review and gave it another star. But honestly, I find it the most frustrating navigation product that I've ever used. It shocks me that it is priced where it is too and I think that confuses other developers who might be looking to enter this market. It's fine if you all want to sing its praises. Let me be the one alternate view pointing out how it should be better. Much better.

I know that there will be a certain dissection of what I've written here. Go ahead - I won't respond. And I'm not looking nor expecting a lot of people nodding their heads in agreement. But if everyone agrees on everything, why have a forum? Why have multiple people giving different opinions? Disagree with me all you want and use facts to build your case. That's healthy and will uncover the new realities that no one person alone can discover. You shouldn't be shooting down my dissent. You should be embracing it. For having that honest discussion is where the truth lies.

Thank you for your opinion.

I have been thinking about this post and I agree with some of what is said, and disagree with some. I think the points should be discussed, fairly and openly, and for that I thank you.

I think we can all agree that the big names in navigation (Coastal Navigator, MaxSea, Garmin, etc) are not Mac-friendly companies. They have shown little if any interest in the Mac, even when, as I believe in the case of MaxSea, they started out on the Mac and then went to Windows. I don't blame them - they are free to go where the money is, even when the money then moves elsewhere and they don't. But to say that the people who are working on nav software for the Mac & iPhone are somehow second-rate ("low-end" is the quote, I believe) is wrong. I think that if you add up all the people working on Mac navigation software, we wouldn't match even one of the Windows groups, but we are a dedicated bunch who work very hard at making our platform of choice a great one for navigation. But we aren't corporations with millions of dollars and dozens of programmers.

I've tried PolarNavy on the Mac, and Navimatics on the the iPhone, and I find both to be toys. They just aren't serious products. PolarNavy's display is simplistic, the color choices are, well I almost want to say childish, the interface is confusing, and the features I have come to expect just aren't there. Perhaps in time they will be, I don't know. Navimatics' approach of separate apps for separate regions is expensive and the options they give to users is limited. My opinion is that neither app is adequate for their intended use.

I do like iNavX because of its features, its integration with MacENC, and the breath and depth of the available charts. Does that mean that I think it's perfect? Of course not. Some of Rich's choices as to how to do things I find baffling (as I'm sure some people find some of my design choices with AyeTides and Mr. Tides just as confusing), but it's still head and shoulders above the others and its price is justified.

Having used the Mac since 1986 (ah the good old Fat Mac, 128K of memory and a 400K floppy drive - with OS and apps on it!) and programmed Mr. Tides since 1999, I find the iPhone to be frustrating due to its small screen and people's high expectations. They expect a full-size computer's power with the screen the size of your thumbnail. I think we've done a good job with what we've been given (accolades to Apple for a tremendous SDK) and we should be applauded for our efforts. Not to say that our flaws should be ignored, but neither should they be emphasized over all else.

This discussion should continue, it's important for the future of navigation on the Mac/iPhone/iPad/iWhateverElseJobsComesUpWith (and I for one really wish they'd move away from iNaming everything with i's) and I encourage everyone to jump in with their opinions.

August

Didn't try this one. Looks like a very basic NOAA RNC viewer ..
(It's in the 'Travel' category)

http://isailaway.com/?page_id=104

Yes, I have the free Seattle version of Charts & Tides. I haven't used it a lot, but it looks interesting. Haven't dug into the reviews on the iTunes app store to see why they are so low.

I also have the $50 iNavX I bought a long time ago and the now $15 Navionics West (iPhone only at the moment).

I end up using them all at one time or another, though I would love to find a way better interface with my Furuno system on the boat.

David

I'm new to this forum, and I'm actually glad to see this discussion taking place. As an fairly informed user and longtime boater, I agree with major points in both of the recent posts.

There is some new energy in creating mobile nav products for the iPhone and now iPad. These, often small developers, are creating some very intestesting products. But Activecaptain also has a point that while good and interesting there is is a lot of room for improvement. As I said in an earlier post (and I think someone else mentioned as well), there are good things and bad things about all the products currently available. They will certainly improve (and most have shown a lot of improvement in a relatively short period of time). If the current crop doesn't evolve to fill the needs, someone else will.

About pricing...as a consumer I had a tough time paying the $49 for iNavX. I've used it occasionally, but I never used it for anything serious and largely gave up on it when the Navionics product was first released at a more attractive price point. I often used it on my iPhone in parallel to my Raymarine C series plotter. Eventually though this use faded as the small screen wasn't really suited for this use. I would use it to quickly find a marina phone number though. I would also use both iNavX and Navionics to do some basic planning, to show people where we'd been or were thinking of going or just s general marine google maps.

The recent updates of both products have been really interesting and raised the bar in how we might use them. Charts&Tides is really nice looking on the larger screen, but I have experienced some issues learning to use the interface (I've had similar issues to varying degrees with the others).

In the end, it think we are a the beginning of the evolution. Current products are interesting, but future ones will be indispensable tools.

My current favourite for the iPhone is Navionics. I use it for passage planning, and as a standby for the integrated chart plotter. My main reasons are:


1. Integrated tidal flow data (which is essential for UK sailing)
2. Price of cartography ($30 for UK & Holland including app)
3. Some rather cute Facebook integration

It doesn't have all the functionality of iNavX such as wifi integration, GRIB and AIS, but it does have one killer piece of functionality that the other products lack (IMHO)... in-app tidal flow.
Being able to easily view current and future tide heights and tidal currents (in knots) is essential for passage planning, especially around the Solent where I sail, where you have tidal gates and interesting tidal features to contend with. As far as I'm aware, Navionics is the only app that integrates this fully.

I'm a fan of AyeTides for quick checks of tide times, but as far as I'm aware AyeTides doesn't display currents for UK waters (I'm sure the UKHO is to blame) and requires you to switch apps from iNavX or whatever other app your using.

ReeferJon Wrote:I'm a fan of AyeTides for quick checks of tide times, but as far as I'm aware AyeTides doesn't display currents for UK waters (I'm sure the UKHO is to blame) and requires you to switch apps from iNavX or whatever other app your using.

I don't have any data for currents in the UK. There's no published harmonics that I can find, and no place to get the raw values. Navionics probably purchased access to this information, but I can't afford to do that. It's a bummer

I just want to be clear why I commented on Mr. Siegel's posts and why I thought they were negative towards iNavx and other products by GPSNavx. I do not know Rich and do not usually post in forums unless I have something particular to ask. I am thinking about buying a iPad 3G and wanted to know if Navionics was going to issue an update for the iPad. I did a little searching and found a thread on Cruisers Forum and Rich posted how iNavx would be updated for the iPad. Now I know he is trying to push his program and he has that right. The difference is he is not bad mouthing others to make him self look better. Then two posts down you are posting about Navimatics and why would anyone want to go backwards and use something as bad as iNavx.

Mr. Seegel writes.
"Charts & Tides is currently the only iPhone or iPad app that rotates the charts as your boat turns too. This is an incredibly important feature. Why go backwards in time when the charts couldn't rotate? Charts that don't rotate are what you get with iNavX, Navionics, and Memory-Map. This should be seriously considered before spending $50 on software for your iPhone. You'll surely end up hating the forced north-up/chart-up display especially when you're on your boat and moving through the water. Most of the apps don't have a demo/trial mode so you won't find this out until you've bought it."


I first was introduced to MacENC about three years ago, it was the only nav program for the Mac I could find and it cost me a $99! I have tried all the major nav programs including Admiral and although they are feature rich the truth is MacENC does a good job of getting me home safely and for the money I don't see how you can beat it. My biggest complaint I have about iNavx is having to leave the program to get tidal info. That is a fair criticism but your others seem petty. I you are trying to build your business I think it would serve you well to tell us how good your product is and let us decide the merits of your competition. Now that I have made myself look as silly as I think you have yourself, I just felt you were being disingenuous when you wrote you were only stating facts. Mark

majkmil Wrote:My biggest complaint I have about iNavx is having to leave the program to get tidal info.

I'm honestly confused by this. Why is it perfectly acceptable for you to complain about the lack of integrated tide display but I can't complain about the lack of chart rotation?

And by the way, I have no iPhone product on the market.

Jeff I started this and I will stop now. I just felt your criticism was unfair and narrow towards GPSnavX.

I've only used Course-Up on my chartplotter a couple of times. The screen redraws occur so frequently as the boat is being pushed around by the waves that it's unusable. I can't see it being any better on the iPhone, and I think the constant redraws will cut the battery life down as well. But to each his own, I guess.

On a different note, did you know that to get all the Navionics products on the iPhone will cost you $650 and take up 4.66 GB of space? Ouch! To get just the US will run you $125, but weirdly enough on x-traverse they sell the US maps for only $20. Even the HotMaps Premium versions (all 4 of them) are only $60 total. I'm curious about something else to, do the Navionics apps allow for chart updating or are they fixed with what's in them at the time of downloading?

In addition to the free NOAA RNC charts, iNavX (on iPod/iPhone) offers the new 1XG 2010 edition which covers the entire US and Bahamas for $20...

http://x-traverse.com/product/TD-NAV-1XG-MB

Furthermore when Navionics puts out an error correction, each purchaser is notified via email and can immediately download the corrected charts directly into iNavX (no lengthy syncing with a PC or Mac needed). With iNavX one can download all or a subset of the chart regions they need. iNavX also easily shows the version and edition of the chart(s). Most charts purchased from X-Traverse work in GPSNavX and MacENC in addition to iNavX. Keep the feature requests coming as some turn out to be great ideas. iNavX for iPad, iPod and iPad will continue to be improved and supported without any additional charge for an update.

AugustH Wrote:On a different note, did you know that to get all the Navionics products on the iPhone will cost you $650 and take up 4.66 GB of space? Ouch!

Yes August, but who needs the skiing maps if you're sailing

I've downloaded a set to take me entirely around the world for about $200, a fraction of their 'pc' costs. I looked at the x-traverse/iNavX but their charts are significantly more pixilated on the ipad than the Navionics when run at 2x, and I need them now, not two or three weeks from now. Downside of Navionics is you can't import waypoints/routes, and can't export them without internet - a bit of a challenge 300 miles offshore. Upside is that you can make a waypoint and route significantly simpler than on iNavX, and you don't have to go through a bunch of steps simply to get a chart to appear.

Scot

That brings up a good question. I cruise in the Pacific NW and would like charts that cover not only Puget Sound/San Juan Islands but also up Vancouver Island/coast of BC. I saw that the 2010 Navionics maps for iNavX cover all US, but what is the best recommendation for the West coast of Canada? The Navionics I have on my chart plotter includes a good ways up Vancouver island and includes Puget Sound.

Suggestions

David

Because of a royalty dispute between Navionics and CHS, X-Traverse offers the official updated CHS charts..

http://www.inavx.com/coverage.htm#CHS

These raster charts (purchased once) can be used with iNavX on iPhone, iPod, iPad and GPSNavX/MacENC on Mac.

jagasail Wrote:Yes August, but who needs the skiing maps if you're sailing
Scot

I suppose if you had a trailerable boat you MIGHT be up in the mountains

But no, I didn't include the ski maps!

iPad when running an iPhone native app doubles pixels regardless of what is displayed. Of course this is a non issue for iNavX 3.0.0 as it uses the native resolution of the device in use. The charts look great on iPad running iNavX 3.0.0. Comparison screen shot ..

http://www.inavx.com/images/iPadNative.png

When do you think iNavX 3 will be released? Can't wait to try it on the iPad...

It's in Apple's hands. Best guess would be anytime this week, but only they know.

GPSNavX Wrote:iPad when running an iPhone native app doubles pixels regardless of what is displayed. Of course this is a non issue for iNavX 3.0.0 as it uses the native resolution of the device in use.

This may be true for inavx but it is NOT true for Navionics. The Navionics menus and frames DO double the pixels at 2x, but the chart within DOES NOT double the pixels. Look for yourself. At 2x the charts are significantly sharper than the equivalent Navionics charts in inavx.

Scot

I was happy to see the iPad version of iNavX in the app store. I haven't given it a good workout yet, but it is nice to have full screen charts rather than the iphone version.

Not sure if/when Navionics will have their iPad version out.

David

Will the Navionics app be a free update like iNavX?

I don't know anything about Navionics plans. At this point I am considering purchasing the navionics charts for your product (iNavx) but I'm not sure how they will look and what features are supported.

There are several things I like about iNavX and some I like about the Navionics app. Is there a way to preview the navionics maps in iNavx? I would also like the ability to support course up orientation and iPad formatted tide info. Any thoughts on when those features might make it to the iPad version?

You and the others (vendors especially) might also be interested to know that there are a couple of other conversations on this topic over at the bayliner owners club forums.

David