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+--- Thread: There's no reason to buy another guidebook... (/thread-1077.html)
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- ActiveCaptain - May 19, 2010
Navimatics Chart&Tides+ for iPhone and iPad was approved by Apple and is now available in the App Store. It provides regions of seamless, quilted NOAA vector charts along with full offline support for ActiveCaptain's data. This is the first mobile software to include the full offline ActiveCaptain integration joining Coastal Explorer, MaxSea Time Zero, Furuno, and Nobeltec. These partnerships along with the people accessing the free ActiveCaptain web site bring the number of boaters viewing this data to over 100,000.
When used on an iPhone or iPad, it provides an incredible guidebook with marinas, anchorages, bridges, boat ramps, inlets, towing facilities, West Marine locations - thousands of boating-related points of interest. All of the items reside locally on the iPhone/iPad. No internet connection is required once the data is downloaded. When an internet connection is available, one tap of the Update button will synchronize the offline data with the ActiveCaptain servers providing the latest information and reviews for all of the items that changed.
Since the release of the Hazard marker some 6 months ago, up-to-the-minute reports on shoaling, wrecks, obstructions, and other dangerous areas along with many Local Notice to Mariners items are immediately visible in the location where care should be taken. Having all of the hazards instantly accessible like this is reason enough for every boater to carry this product with them.
A single Charts&Tides+ license will run on both an iPhone and iPad at the same time. When run on the iPad, full HD resolution is used to create a very nice sized chartplotter. The internal GPS is used to plot your position in a moving map display, optionally rotating the chart as your boat turns so you can always see the next set of markers coming your way.
The Apple App Store has Charts&Tides+ available for $19.99 in three versions - East Coast, Gulf Coast, and West Coast. Each region has large overlap areas. The East Coast covers from Maine to the Keys and the entire west coast of Florida. The Gulf Coast covers the entire state of Florida to Texas. The West Coast covers the entire west coast, Alaska, and Hawaii. A Great Lakes region is under development and awaiting approval.
So for about half the price of a single guidebook covering a smaller area, why would anyone purchase a guidebook any longer? Why get a paper document that is out of date the moment it's printed? Why not have fuel, slip, electric, and other prices available and current with the tap of an Update button? Access many thousands of anchorages not listed in any guidebook along with reviews from people who have dropped the hook there. And of course, reviews of marinas - tens of thousands - both positive and negative from people with the real experience who were there.
And this is just the beginning. There is so much more coming that will greatly enhance the enjoyment and safety of using a boat by taking advantage of these capabilities. Check out Navimatics Charts&Tides+ in the App Store. You'll see that there is just no reason to waste money on paper guidebooks any longer.
Full Navimatics press release available here:
http://navimatics.com/Documents/PR-20100518.pdf
- Chuckbear - May 19, 2010
Jeffrey, You and I have had several discussions in the past on this subject and everywhere you can find an ear you shout out how outdated guide books are as soon as they are printed. As a publisher we understand the limitations of print, however most guide book publishers have means to access updated information through their websites and email updates to subscribers. In addition one only has to go through many of the posted information tabs on Active Captain and find that the "reviews" and posted information is dated to 2008 and 2009 or older. These "reviews" are in fact a matter of personal opinion posted by an individual and we all know one persons opinion is not necessarily the same as another. There is actually no way to tell what date much of the information is derived from. So your product in fact contains a great deal of information that is much more out of date than that which you seem to dwell on from printed guides. We understand you have a product to promote, and you do it well. But your attitude that every other product out there except yours is somehow flawed and should not be used is thin. No one argues that Active Captain is a unique and useful product. But to suggest the folks skippering a boat should use only your product is a bit of an insult to their intelligence. As a long time extensive cruiser, I am well aware of the need for a variety of sources of information on board when we are underway. After 20 years and tens of thousands of miles, I and most cruisers we know along the way use a combination of printed guides and several different electronic media to accomplish our goals of a pleasant and safe passage. Perhaps it is time to get off the outdated information in guides horse and clean up the outdated information on Active Captain. As I am sure you will advise everyone, I am not just a long time cruiser, I am a freelance writer for several national boating publications and have been for 15 years as well as very involved personally in one of those printed guides you seem to constantly take aim at. Chuck
- bobetter - May 19, 2010
....yeah, but CapnChuck, are you working with the Coast Guard on your guidebook contributions?
- AugustH - May 19, 2010
I like participating in the 2 meter (ham) boater's nets that are up in British Columbia and cover the San Juan's. We were going to go to Garrison Bay from Sucia, and heard that the bay was chock-full of boats so we just stayed where we were. Can't get more up-to-date than that!
- Chuckbear - May 19, 2010
Why yes, as a matter of fact we are. Thanks for bringing that up. Chuck
- ActiveCaptain - May 19, 2010
Chuck doesn't make a proper introduction of himself so I'll do it for him - he's the current General Manager of Waterway Guide.
While I can understand why Chuck might take exception with my announcement, his debate is full of holes and incorrect assumptions.
Let me say upfront that with ActiveCaptain, the boater is our customer. They are king to everything we do. We cater to their needs, desires, and strive to make our product to best for them. The question to ask Chuck is, who is Waterway Guide's customer? We'll get to that later. For now, let's dissect what Chuck wrote.
CapnChuck Wrote:As a publisher we understand the limitations of print, however most guide book publishers have means to access updated information through their websites and email updates to subscribers.Let's go to the update page on Waterway Guide's web site:
http://www.waterwayguide.com/publications.php
That page is supposed to list every update for every one of the 6 books that Waterway Guide produces. I'll save you from jumping to that page. There are zero corrections listed. Do you honestly mean to tell me that every piece of information in all 6 books is completely correct from the time it was published?
ActiveCaptain averages over 1,000 updates to it's data every day. On Tuesday we received 1,800 updates. Today we received 2,800 updates. Our totals are higher than normal right now because of the new iPhone/iPad announcement and activity is generally up. How could it be that we receive so many additional pieces of information and there are absolutely no updates for your 6 books in the months since they were printed?
CapnChuck Wrote:In addition one only has to go through many of the posted information tabs on Active Captain and find that the "reviews" and posted information is dated to 2008 and 2009 or older.Thank goodness we show the older reviews. That often shows a trend and changes happening at a facility. As management changes, the reviews will often change. Amazon does the same thing and it's a pretty good model for reviewing a product or service.
St Augustine Municipal Marina is a good example:
http://activecaptain.com/X.php?lat=29.891741&lon=-81.308795&t=n&z=16
They currently have 21 reviews. Some are from a week or two ago; a couple are from 2007. The body of reviews shows an exceptional facility over 3 years with the only consistent issue being a warning about current when entering the marina. I think having those older reviews there is an excellent feature of ActiveCaptain and I'm glad it's there.
CapnChuck Wrote:These "reviews" are in fact a matter of personal opinion posted by an individual and we all know one persons opinion is not necessarily the same as another.Yes, the reviews are personal opinions from a variety of different people. Some local people who know an area well and some from people who are visiting. Are you saying that the method that Waterway Guide uses where an editor writes information about a facility is better? Isn't their writing just one person's opinion? Isn't it better having the differing viewpoints? We have plenty of marinas with both 1 and 5 star reviews. Those are so incredibly important because different type of boats, boaters, needs, etc have different experiences.
Going further, please Chuck, show me one negative thing written about a marina in any Waterway Guide. Just one. Give me the sentence. It's hard to find because Waterway Guide is about advertising - and I'll get more into that below.
CapnChuck Wrote:There is actually no way to tell what date much of the information is derived from. So your product in fact contains a great deal of information that is much more out of date than that which you seem to dwell on from printed guides.This is confusing to me. Apart from our dated review section for each marina and anchorage, we have a details section. The details section contains factual information verified by us. Whether a marina has showers isn't really something up for debate. They either do or they don't and it sort of ends there. Now whether they're clean or not, well that's not something that will ever show up in a Waterway Guide. And yet, that's the type of information boaters want - and our reviews tell them that.
What started Karen and me down the path to create ActiveCaptain was our total frustration with phone numbers being wrong in a Waterway Guide. Phone numbers!
Now through all of this argument, I'm not saying that all of our data is 100% perfect. I know it's not. But I also know that any piece of information can be updated, edited, or amended within 2 minutes. No update pages, emails, or manual insertion required - if you ever really do that anyway.
CapnChuck Wrote:We understand you have a product to promote, and you do it well....[other text about how having multiple pieces of information is good and how much experience Chuck has personally clipped]I stand behind by statement that there is no reason to buy another guidebook, especially one like Waterway Guide. Let's get back to "who's the customer"...
You see, Waterway Guide sells very expensive advertisements to marinas and other organizations. The prices of these ads is upwards of $20,000 per page. What truly disgusts me as a boater is that the guides are distributed as a reference book when in reality, they are asking the boater to pay for a book of ads. And yet do these guides adhere to journalistic practices separating editorial content from advertising content? We all know the answer to that. They don't. Put a big ad in a Waterway Guide and you're guaranteed to be highlighted in table of the few marinas mentioned for an area and there will surely be no negative words written. Marinas understand this game and the ones we're talking to are sick of it too.
This similar thing happens with many of the boating magazines we all read. But in almost all cases, those magazines are free. I like reading them - I admit it - but I certainly don't expect to get a real positives-vs-negatives review of the new boats reviewed. I know that the magazines are advertising vehicles but the free cost makes it all seem OK to me. Contrast with the $40 charged by Waterway Guide given as "The Cruising Authority". It's a terrible, flawed practice that presents biased information. To make it even worse, they make it seem like it's an impartial tool for the boater. It sickens me and it's a major reason why we felt something like ActiveCaptain was needed.
The honest truth Chuck is that boaters are starting to realize all of this. They're tired of not finding that out-of-the-way marina that can't afford your advertisements. They want to find the facilities that provide good service and they want honest information. And the marinas are tired of feeling like they're held hostage by your large fees without any real proof that the ads work.
The title for my announcement wasn't something that I wrote. It was something that was written to me by another boater. The sad truth for Waterway Guide is that a lot of boaters are realizing that there just isn't a reason to buy another guidebook. You're living in a house of cards with a big wind on the horizon.
- bobetter - May 20, 2010
CapnChuck Wrote:Why yes, as a matter of fact we are. Thanks for bringing that up. Chuck
That's great! Perhaps you could give us some idea as to how you accomplish it? AC has been mute on the point. Busy sending PMs, I guess.
- AugustH - May 20, 2010
I'm reading "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyer (the book, not on an iPad nor a computer), and a quote in the introduction (about Star Wars, actually) rang a bell. It was about Luke Skywalker being the hero. The quote is:
"It's what Goethe said in Faust but which Lucas has dressed in modern idiom - the message that technology is not going to save us. Our computers, our tools, our machines are not enough. We have to rely on our intuition, our true being."
My intuition says books will always have a place on a boat, as batteries die and computers fry. When I go offshore I'll have a sextant, as the stars won't go away but GPS might. Paper charts? Always. Computers? Not every time.
Besides, I'd rather be watching the waves, feeling the wind, and avoiding those boaters more intent on their keyboards than on where they were going and what they were about to hit.
- bobetter - May 20, 2010
Yep, I totally agree. Things break...not a question of if but when. The remove that our gadgets create is unavoidable, but I do love them. There was a post somewhere that said, and I quote,
" It's a beautiful day in Hawk Channel and so easy to write at the helm."
That is a perfect example of being really out of touch on soooo many levels....
- Chuckbear - May 20, 2010
As of right now we we handle it through email blasts to subscribers from the Local Notice To Mariners just like everyone else. There are several folks that republish the LNM in a different format and post it on sites like BoatUS forums and others. In addition we have had discussions with them on how we might get the information as it is available rather than waiting for the published LNM. The oil spill has been on everyones mind and we are in touch constantly with the Response Center to squash any rumors and get correct and verified information. We don't get access to their computers or anything like that, just simple phone calls and emails. We send out any information we feel is pertinent via email blast and posts on our website immediately. Nothing too fancy but it works and the information gets out there. Chuck
- ActiveCaptain - May 20, 2010
AugustH Wrote:My intuition says books will always have a place on a boat, as batteries die and computers fry. When I go offshore I'll have a sextant, as the stars won't go away but GPS might. Paper charts? Always. Computers? Not every time.I agree in many ways, August, but the reality is that there are few people like us with paper charts out any longer. Most boats I walk onto these days not only don't have paper charts out, the don't own them.
I'm sure this exact thing happened in other areas as technology marched ahead too. I'm sure there were people who warned about the removal of the crank used to start early automobiles. I'll bet people argued about how much would be lost as the telegraph with Morse code replaced the Pony Express. But my professional world is in these next-technology products and I'll promote it as vigorously as the guy who came up with the first self-tailing winch pushed his.
Perhaps electronic guides won't replace paper ones but if I had to choose my customer base right now, I'd choose the one's using GPS, MacBooks, and iPhones and leave the sextant-carrying group to the paper guidebook publishers.
- bobetter - May 20, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Perhaps electronic guides won't replace paper ones but if I had to choose my customer base right now, I'd choose the one's using GPS, MacBooks, and iPhones and leave the sextant-carrying group to the paper guidebook publishers.
I know a lot of sailors that still carry (and use) a sextant. They invariably use it to back up their GPS. They also have many flavors of guidebooks, both electronic and paper and I think that's the point-redundancy, a very good reason to continue to buy paper cruising guides.
BTW, the OP has titled this topic "There's no reason to buy another guidebook" but then later posts:
ActiveCaptain Wrote:but the reality is that there are few people like us with paper charts
.....now I'm confused...is redundancy good or bad?????
- Richard R - May 20, 2010
I'm glad that Jeff mentioned St Augustine Municipal marina, because that is an excellent example of a schilling problem developing with ActiveCaptain. I gave this marina a poor rating because of the swift current, and because it is exposed to some wind directions. When we stayed there we were unable to leave this marina until nearly slack tide because we deemed it too dangerous to back out of the slip, stop, and turn ninety degrees all with a four knot current pushing us back toward the docks and other boats.
Within a couple of days two other "boaters" gave it a 5 star, or "perfect" rating. Then when Jeff was there himself a few months later, he also gave this marina a "perfect" rating.
Too often marina managements are pretending to be boaters to give their facility glowing reviews.
However, ActiveCaptain is a valuable resource for information on marinas. I just don't place much faith in the reviews.
A downside is that in order to access ActiveCaptain, you must have an internet connection, or purchase one of the expensive PC based nav software packages, or buy a iPad and Navimatics Charts and Tides (not a bad idea). Therefore ActiveCaptain will never replace the printed guide books.
Schilling is a problem with other sites too. I don't bother visiting www.tripadvisor.com any more, because the hotel ratings are useless.
I am sure that Jeff would prefer if all the marina reviews came only from boaters. I am also sure that he will figure out a way to make that happen.
Richard
- ActiveCaptain - May 20, 2010
Chez Nous Wrote:I'm glad that Jeff mentioned St Augustine Municipal marina, because that is an excellent example of a schilling problem developing with ActiveCaptain.I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "schilling". I mean, I definitely know what the word means. But do you think this is happening in a large and general way in ActiveCaptain? I know that it isn't.
I just recently was at a rendezvous at the St. Augustine Municipal Marina. I've had the luxury of being there before but I read all of the reviews prior to arriving. At that time there were 19 reviews and 12 of them mentioned something about the current. Even if I hadn't been there before, that would have made it obvious that current is a definite issue at this location.
So we arrived the afternoon before our reservation, anchored just to the south and waited until slack tide the next day. I called the marina and asked them to give me the best time to arrive - we have a fairly large boat with a deep draft and it is most surely pushed by current. They picked the time and met our boat as I was backing into the slip. Life was good. A similar thing happened when we left. Bottom line - by reading the reviews we avoided the issue and had a fantastic time - we stayed for a week. Their facilities are exceptional and the staff is one of the best, most helpful I've ever encountered. Do you think someone paid me for my review or that I'm padding it in some way? Would you like some references to 1 star reviews I've given to marinas? I've given very, very few 5 star reviews to marinas. Something has to be very special about it in my mind. St. Augustine definitely fit that requirement.
One thing that we do is provide the number of "points" a captain has next to every review they post. When you see a five star rating and 10 points (like one of the reviews out of the 21 for St. Augustine) I'd put very little belief that the review is real. But looking through the other reviews, I just don't see happening in a general way. I believe that the community fixes things like that and I've seen it happen many times.
So do marinas put glowing reviews for themselves at times? Yes, I'm sure some do. I'd prefer if they made it obvious that it was the marina writing the review but I doubt most do that. We just completed an article for the July/August issue of Marina DockAge magazine talking about this exact thing. Some marinas think they're being clever by creating a fake user. Ultimately it doesn't work for long.
- bobetter - May 22, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:So do marinas put glowing reviews for themselves at times? Yes, I'm sure some do.
That's the problem with a system like this, self-interest gets in the way of truth and accuracy. It also happens, to a certain extent with Apple's App Store, although there are procedures to deal with it there. We witness it on this very forum frequently but most times the members see right thru it and call out the guilty, or just ignore what is blatantly obvious.
I think I'll stick with info that's been vetted by professionals and/or created by companies' whose continued existence is predecated (sp) on accuracy.
- ActiveCaptain - May 22, 2010
bobetter Wrote:I think I'll stick with info that's been vetted by professionals and/or created by companies' whose continued existence is predecated (sp) on accuracy.An excellent debate point! Thank you. So you're saying that you'd rather have the point of view of a single editor about a boating location than a group of people who have been to the location? I sort of think that most people would rather have the opinions of a group. They can't all be biased and it's usually pretty easy to figure out if someone is just padding a review to beef up their own facility. But most people would rather get a general consensus - at least that's what they tell us.
Here's the thing though. If a "professionally vetted" guidebook's existence is based on their profitability, then aren't they mostly motivated to protect their source of income? If a guidebook accepts high-priced advertising from a marina, do you really think that marina is fairly evaluated in the guidebook? That's why it all comes down to the question that Chuck won't answer - who is the customer of Waterway Guide? He'd rather deflect the debate to a series of personal issues but when it comes right down to it, he never answered the major question. I doubt he ever will.
The easy thing would have been for Chuck to say that both the boater and advertiser are his customer. That would be a sensitive thing to say - untrue of course - but it would have given an answer that he could swallow. You see, until Waterway Guide has good and bad evaluations of different places along the waterways they cover, they show their hand with every edition.
Now part of your response has a hidden message to me about the re-review I just entered for iNavX. The truth is that I have real, honest-to-goodness issues with using that product. I even wrote again to Rich to explain the major one and gave him an example so he could feel the frustration that many people are feeling when they use the product. Perhaps it has to do with to cruising on the east coast vs the west. I don't know. Go back and look at the star ratings ReferJon posted a week ago. There are a large number of 1-star reviews for iNavX, aren't there? Are all of those 44 1-star reviews from people who are biased against Rich for some reason?
I know you think I'm biased against iNavX. It really isn't true. I'm critical of hard-to-use products. I raise specific issues and problems that I encounter and I even offer to help fix or test them.
- bobetter - May 22, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:bobetter Wrote:I think I'll stick with info that's been vetted by professionals and/or created by companies' whose continued existence is predecated (sp) on accuracy.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:An excellent debate point!
Not really trying to make a debate point, just stating a personal preference.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:So you're saying that you'd rather have the point of view of a single editor about a boating location than a group of people who have been to the location?
Absolutely not, just the opposite. I like redundancy, remember? You called this topic, "No reason to buy another guidebook"...
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Now part of your response has a hidden message to me about the re-review I just entered for iNavX.
uh, No? I was just using it as an example of this type of system's drawbacks. Believe me, I don't really think I need to send any "hidden messages" to you.
ActiveCaptain Wrote:I know you think I'm biased against iNavX. It really isn't true. I'm critical of hard-to-use products. I raise specific issues and problems that I encounter and I even offer to help fix or test them.
You're kidding, right? I don't think you're biased against iNavX per se, I think you're biased against anything non Active Captain. Evidently other members of this forum think so too. And again, just because it is "hard-to-use" for you doesn't mean it is so for others. If you look at the sales comparisons for iNavX and other nav apps, many seem to have "overcome" what is an issue for you.
Lastly, you have made a guidebook. It is not navigation software by any stretch of the imagination. Why would anyone who develops and maintains serious, full function marine navigation software be interested in your input? Please don't take that the wrong way...if you were to produce something, perhaps I'd take you seriously.
- ActiveCaptain - May 22, 2010
bobetter Wrote:Absolutely not, just the opposite. I like redundancy, remember? You called this topic, "No reason to buy another guidebook"...That's the second time you mentioned redundancy with regard to guidebooks. I mean, I'm a fan of redundancy with boating. But the things that I make sure are redundant are the things that raise to a certain critical level - navigation, resources, propulsion, etc. As much as I love ActiveCaptain, I'm not sure if losing the ability to find out whether a marina has clean showers is really something that needs redundancy, does it?
bobetter Wrote:I don't think you're biased against iNavX per se, I think you're biased against anything non ActiveCaptain.I don't think that's fair or true. I raise specific issues with the products I mention - good and bad. The Navionics product is most surely non-ActiveCaptain and yet I've written a lot of positive things about it. I was just interviewed for another article this afternoon and gave a lot of positive Navionics examples. When Practical Sailor reviewed three products just last month and put iNavX at the bottom - last of the 3 - are they biased too? Is there some unwritten rule here that you're not allowed to say anything negative about iNavX, GPSNavX, or MacENC?
All of this is a bit off-topic. If you'd like to discuss reviews and bias of software, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate.
How about this - if there is a reason to buy another guidebook, do you need to buy a new one? Wouldn't a used guidebook on eBay be just as good? Perusing around eBay finds that 2009 Waterway Guides are selling for about $15 whereas new ones are around $40. I mean, if there's some odd need for marina-data-redundancy, doesn't an older guide fit the bill? Since the data isn't very current anyway, why do you need to spend more money?
- bobetter - May 22, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:All of this is a bit off-topic. If you'd like to discuss reviews and bias of software, perhaps another thread would be more appropriate
I disagree. You have chosen to utilize this forum as part of your in-your-face marketing strategy. Pursuant to that, you make a product announcement and call it "There's no reason to buy another guidebook". I happen to disagree with that philosophy and here we are......again.
I wonder if you had titled the topic, "So and So releases a new product" if I would have even noticed the post?
- AugustH - May 22, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:I'm sure there were people who warned about the removal of the crank used to start early automobiles. I'll bet people argued about how much would be lost as the telegraph with Morse code replaced the Pony Express. But my professional world is in these next-technology products and I'll promote it as vigorously as the guy who came up with the first self-tailing winch pushed his.
Perhaps electronic guides won't replace paper ones but if I had to choose my customer base right now, I'd choose the one's using GPS, MacBooks, and iPhones and leave the sextant-carrying group to the paper guidebook publishers.
I think you're missing the point by comparing having paper charts on board to a hand crank on a car, or to having a sextant when GPS is available. Anything that needs power will fail eventually. That's physics, and can't be denied. The marine environment is especially nasty to all things electronic. So if you're out at night, approaching the coast, do you want to have only electronic charts? Do you want only electric or hydraulic autopilots, or a windvane steering the boat? If you're looking up an anchorage on the ActiveCaptain web site (assuming you have Wi-Fi or 3G, not always the case around Vancouver Island) and the computer dies or can't connect, then you pull out Wagonner's and read about the unmarked rock in the middle of the channel, because he's been there, seen the rock, wrote about the rock, and kept updating the guide every year. Then you pull out the paper chart and put a dot on it for the rock, while you're there you see the marks you made ten years before on a trip around the island, and you remember getting out the dividers and the rulers and marking off the routes and figuring out lats and longs and looking for hazards and all the stuff that goes with having a full chart laid out on the table in front of you, and you remember all the fun you had. Tough to do when the computer's lying dead on the settee.
So go ahead and push whatever technology you want, but only fools go cruising without backups.
I like this book, http://www.amazon.com/Self-Sufficient-Sailor-Larry-Pardey/dp/0964603675, especially chapter 4: if you can't repair it, maybe it shouldn't be on board.
- ActiveCaptain - May 22, 2010
The hand crank is exactly the same thing. In the early days of autos, you needed to have the crank and a full set of tools in order to keep the car running and for safety. As time passed, the crank went away, and most people today don't even have a screwdriver in their car. Why do you think this won't happen with boating? Why do you think this hasn't already happened with boating??
It might not be the most prudent of things to just turn on your GPS and go, but the reality is that this is the environment that most boaters are in today. You might not like it or you might long for the days where you only had your sextant, but the reality is that for the most part, electronics satisfy the needs of 90% or more of the boaters out there. For most people, a chartplotter on their phone is all the backup they want (or need).
Again, I'm not saying that's how I pilot my boat. But it's what I see all around me.
And again, is redundancy of your guidebook of anchorages and marina facilities all that important? It might be true that it is possible for your iPhone to die in the middle of use. It's also possible for your Waggoner's to flip off the seat and into the drink.
And what about the used guidebook August? Do you need to buy a new one every year if that rock has been in the same place for our lifetime?
Bob - if you'd like to discuss the need to buy guidebooks, I'm all ready for the debate. But sliding that into whether I'm biased against products that don't use ActiveCaptain has really nothing to do with that and I'm going to start ignoring it in this thread.
- bobetter - May 22, 2010
ActiveCaptain Wrote:Bob - if you'd like to discuss the need to buy guidebooks, I'm all ready for the debate. But sliding that into whether I'm biased against products that don't use ActiveCaptain has really nothing to do with that and I'm going to start ignoring it in this thread.
Why am I not surprised? I didn't "slide" into anything, if you'd like to take issue with how I've characterized this topic's development, ignoring it is not the way to accomplish that. You set this course yourself, pretending there are no rocks doesn't make them go away. You chose the title of the topic and posted. If you wanna start a new topic (or change this title, dunno if you can) go right ahead.
- ActiveCaptain - May 24, 2010
To help demonstrate my point about the reduced need to buy another guidebook, I came across this blog entry today:
"Active Captainâ€- our favorite cruising tool:
http://limerick3942.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/active-captain-our-favorite-cruising-tool/
Their entry is typical of the 10 emails a day we get showing how ActiveCaptain is being used. As the data now spreads across different platforms, devices, and software, the need for any type of paper guide is diminished. Redundancy is achieved by having the data on both your Mac and phone (and iPad), and if that isn't enough, it's available with an internet connection. Keeping the data offline means that no communications vehicle is needed - all of the data is with you wherever you find yourself.
Limerick provides a good explanation of how they see cruising and the changes they've noticed since their last boat. It's good reading and is typical of what a majority of new, open-minded boaters experience today.
I'll copy the text here:
[highlight]It seems that so many things have changed since we last cruised 14 years ago. Fuel used to be less than a buck a gallon, the average marina charged about $.75-$1.25/ft. per night, LORAN was a widely used navigation aid, and there were several basic cruising guides to choose from. Most of these guides were "updated†occasionally, but chances were that a lot of the info was out of date by the time we were reading it.
Well, fast forward to today. Fuel is closer to 3 bucks a gallon, it is rare to find a marina that charges less than $1.75/ft. per night (with many at $2.00-$3.00/ft.), GPS has replaced LORAN, and there are a number of ways to get more up-to-date cruising information. And this last change is quite significant.
Up-to-date cruising information is possible because we now have the Internet, wherever we go, as a tool to gather and share information. Indeed, it seems to me that the time has passed for using the old-timey, outdated cruising guides that write nice reviews about the marinas and facilities that just happen to have bought advertising in that guide. As cruisers we need unbiased, free, and up-to-the minute information about the places we want to go. And of the various sources for information that cruisers need to know, Active Captain is a real standout.
Readers of this blog know that often I mention using Active Captain as a tool in our cruise planning. This easy-to-use, FREE web site offers a complete interactive guide for all of the areas that we cruise. With a simple click of my computer mouse I can get up-to-date information and reviews that have been posted by other cruisers, and sometimes the info has been posted as recently as that day! Marina and anchorage reviews, fuel prices, local knowledge, hazard information- it's all there, constantly being updated everyday by thousands of cruisers around the world. And did I mention that it's FREE!
For Cindy and me, Active Captain is our favorite cruising tool. We use it every day when we are on the water. We encourage all of our fellow cruisers to post information and reviews on Active Captain. The more of us that contribute to the database, the better it will be for all of us.
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I'm not sure if I could have written that better myself!
- Chuckbear - May 24, 2010
And here are a small sampling of emails we receive every day. And this proves???....that there are many people out there that have their own preferences for boating. That the prudent skipper and owner is going to use a variety of sources to gather the needed information to make informed decisions. And we did not write or solicit any of this.
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You guys are unreal! This is super terrific! (I like it).
Waterway Guide Planner
Morry M
I have been searching for weeks for exactly this type of information to plan our run from Lake Pontchartrain, La. to Fort Walton, Fla. This is by far the best website I have found. This information will allow me to plan route and overnight/fuel stops...
Wow. Being able to see marinas and anchorages and their data along with the nautical chart and satelite visual is outstanding. It gives me the ability to see the port in detail before entering the harbor. Also makes marina selection easier. Have you considered using GPS input for ships position?
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YOUR WATERWAY GUIDE HAS BEEN A DELIGHT. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. NOW WHEN I BUY THE PAPER BACK I FEEL THAT I'M CONTRIBUTING TO A CAUSE. IF YOU COULD COVER THE NE USA, YOU'LL MAKE MY DAY.
RK
Ed Note: RK, we cover the NE in the Northern Edition, updated annually.
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We received this email from Terry M the other day.
I prefer your guide to marina.com . I have been in business for 36 years and they don't have me listed after repeated requests. Check out http://www.terrysmarina.com purchased in 1974 but not listed. Thanks for including my marina in your guide. Regards, Terry 586-709-9559
"Waterway Guide... Terry's Marina Is not a paid advertiser. We have almost 3,000 marinas listed in our guides for free that do not advertise."
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"When Gerald and I took one year to make the "Big Circle", the Waterway Guide was like a bible to us. The information was always very up to date and included the information we needed to make decisions. In many cases, these decisions had to be made instantly. We were never misguided. We bought a Waterway Guide for every region that you published and would not be without the one we needed. We cruised just as the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway opened. There was no precedent at all. I assume we were the pioneers of the "Great Loop"."
I know you did not own this publication at the time, but I am sure you have kept your guides current and accurate. I highly recommend the Waterway Guides to all cruisers.
Ginger C
From the Press...
"If you plan on cruising anywhere along the East Coast, Great Lakes, and/or Bahamas, then don't leave the dock without one - or all - of these; they're the most comprehensive cruising guides I have ever used. The Waterway Guide was my best friend, both in good times and bad, during a recent cruise I did along Chesapeake Bay."
-Power & Motoryacht
"We could sum up Dozier's Waterway Guide: The Cruising Authority: Southern 2006 as ‘everything you want to know about the waters of Florida, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Bahamas in a spiral-bound format so you can lay it flat on your helm for easy reference,' but that would leave us with a lot of blank space on this page...The result is a veritable Encyclopedia Britannica of southern boating."
-Southern Boating
"Dozier's Waterway Guide is an indispensable cruising companion, featuring detailed navigational information, spectacular aerial photography with white-lined routes, and tips on what to do ashore. This well-known series, updated annually since 1947, provide the most comprehensive and current data available on nearly 4,000 marinas and boating-related businesses on the East Coast, the Gulf of Mexico, the Bahamas, the Great Lakes, and America's Great Loop."
-MarineMax Lifestyles
"Waterway Guide was the first, to our knowledge, to give marina listings for each major harbor. A handy grid format is used...all keyed to charts to make them easy to find."
-Practical Sailor
"...The Waterway Guide: Great Lakes [edition] provides enough local knowledge to make a trip of a lifetime and eliminate any, ‘We missed something great,' regrets upon returning to our warm seas..."
-Southern Boating
From Boaters and Boating Organizatons....
"There is no more comprehensive set of guides on the Great Loop than Waterway Guides. The four regional guides are the only set of guidebooks that cover the entire Great Loop. The compendium of information is exhaustive, the aerial photography is stunning and the organization makes the guides easy to use...there is probably no other publication that covers so much for so little."
-Ron and Eva Stob, America's Great Loop Cruisers' Association
"We have been traveling the ICW for the past 14 years and simply could not have had the wonderful adventures we've had without your Waterway Guides. We have found that all of the information is pertinent and up-to-date. Your new Waterway Guide Magazine just adds to your great publications!"
-Kay Olinger, S/V Seaboard Tack, Ft. Myers Beach, Florida
"As a professional contract captain with over 160 Florida to New England transits, I only recommend Dozier's Waterway Guide to yacht owners I instruct, or assist in their vessel delivery. Having viewed all of the other guides available, it is my experience that Dozier's Waterway Guide is a must have for the yacht owner and professional captain. I never leave port without it."
-John Wampler, Master Mariner
"The Waterway Guide is one of the best Christmas presents I have ever received. As someone new to boating, it has come in very handy as we make our way along the Intracoastal. Its accuracy and information are the best. Waterway Guide is a must-have."
-Michael B. Cooney
"As a woman and first mate, your Waterway Guide is "to the nines." It helps us find great marinas and special points of interest."
-Charlene C. Lonick
"The Waterway Guide is as essential as the appropriate chart. I've found it to be an invaluable reference tool and by far the best on the market."
-Captain James Deibel, M/V Smitten
"We love you guys! Whenever underway, the Waterway Guide is a permanent fixture in the cockpit and is essential for our planning purposes."
-Brian and Heather, S/V Holding Pattern
"I am a captain that delivers boats to Florida and to Canada and need info when I am delivering a customer's boat. I have bean boating for 25 years. The info that I have received from the Waterway Guide has keep me out of trouble, never traveled until I check out up to date info. Once again thank you keep up the great work, my life depends on it."
-Captain Milton Ellison
"I'm not the captain, but he couldn't do his job without me, my eyes and my Waterway Guide!"
-Bobby Jo Viksne
"As soon as we bought our new C-Dory 25, we went straight to the marine store and bought Dozier's Waterway Guide. It's a great guide and we've always used it as our boating bible."
-Linda R. Lovelace
"Waterway Guide is an excellent publication. Anyone cruising should have one of these. Some of the cruising books I have seen have some of the information contained in the WG. However, Waterway Guides have it all. I would feel very comfortable boating to any location covered by this book."
-Norman Hoffman
- ActiveCaptain - May 24, 2010
CapnChuck Wrote:And here are a small sampling of emails we receive every day.Hmmm...every day? So these aren't picked from your batch of compliments you've received over multiple years?
Let's take a look at a couple of them...
CapnChuck Wrote:"We could sum up Dozier's Waterway Guide: The Cruising Authority: Southern 2006 as...2006? You just got this within the last few days? Seems like this one is 4 years old.
CapnChuck Wrote:"There is no more comprehensive set of guides on the Great Loop than Waterway Guides. The four regional guides are the only set of guidebooks that cover the entire Great Loop. The compendium of information is exhaustive, the aerial photography is stunning and the organization makes the guides easy to use...there is probably no other publication that covers so much for so little."That's funny, the Stob's sold AGLCA in 2007. They're just getting around to telling how wonderful Waterway Guide is today?
-Ron and Eva Stob, America's Great Loop Cruisers' Association
Those were the easy ones. For the others, I tried to look for a few of the quotes - couldn't find a single one except on the Waterway Guide web site. At least when I made a quote, I gave a specific reference. And that reference was published today.
The truth is that guidebooks had their place. I spent hundreds of dollars on guidebooks in my personal cruising for use while on my boat. But somewhere around 2008/2009 they started to become obsolete. By 2010, they just aren't needed any longer, hence the title of the thread, "There's no reason to buy another guidebook..."
Chuck's quotes sort of prove this point. It seems like a bulk of the quotes are from 3+ years ago - let's call that the heyday of cruising guidebooks.
Today we're in the downturn of cruising guidebooks as they dwindle down and become something that we used to use while cruising. The clock is ticking as the various publishers start to fall off one-by-one (no matter how many personal emails are published).