[stevemac00]

If no improvements were made I'd still be very happy to have this app. Thanks. After using a few weeks I'd like to suggest:

Measure distance between 2 points while connected - not just distance from boat. (To do this I had to disconnect the GPS and close laptop then open back up disconnected.)

When measuring and it's less than 1NM, it shows in yards. I can't relate to yards. Consider decimal miles (e.g. 0.1NM, 0.5NM).

Better use of remembering state. On a laptop the screen real estate is precious. I don't want navigation or waypoint windows popping up unexpectedly.

Better use of modifier keys so I don't have to explicitly change modes. I prefer to avoid all the mouse clicking - especially on a trackpad.

Document file which holds all routes, etc. Now, to move those from desktop to laptop requires an import/export. I'd like to use documents similar to chart manager.

For route info. Add fuel consumption calculator. I used this in Nobeltec and like it when having to motor. Also, allow entry of minimum and average speed so I can predetermine fuel and/or time requirements without using my own calculator. Ok, put this at the bottom of the list.

Thanks for your efforts!

[GPSNavX]

Looks like there are a few items you didn't find in the MacENC/GPSNavX help. They are there..

Measure distance between 2 points while connected - not just distance from boat. (To do this I had to disconnect the GPS and close laptop then open back up disconnected.)

Hold down the [command] key before measuring to start from a position other then the real-time GPS position.


Better use of remembering state. On a laptop the screen real estate is precious. I don't want navigation or waypoint windows popping up unexpectedly.

Minimize the waypoints, tracks or route windows and they won't pop-up again. Their window positions are saved and restored up startup and shut down of GPSNavX/MacENC.


Better use of modifier keys so I don't have to explicitly change modes. I prefer to avoid all the mouse clicking - especially on a trackpad.

pressing [Space Bar] will temporarly switch to chart drag mode.


Document file which holds all routes, etc. Now, to move those from desktop to laptop requires an import/export. I'd like to use documents similar to chart manager.

Actually you can copy the appropriate files between Macs..

http://www.gpsnavx.com/help/files.htm
http://www.gpsnavx.com/MacENC/help/files.htm

[adjuvantjfoster]

Hi Rich:

As long as we are looking at the topic of wish list, I can hardly wait for your use of Google Sky.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/22/google_sky/

I imagine Rich linking the heading and location to a view of Google Sky ahead of the boat towards the horizon so that night time cruisers get to learn more about what the ancient Polynesian Navigators used in the manner of near the horizon line steering stars.

If you are wondering what that is all about there are a couple of great books on the subject by David Lewis.

http://www.fer3.com/arc/m2.aspx?i=009136&y=200303

If you can't find those older books using the American Book Exchange

http://www.abebooks.com

or Amazon or your own favorite book search engine try looking at a more recent book the Steve Thomas (former host of This Old House).

http://www.stevethomashome.com/navigator.html

Anybody got any ideas on how to use Google Sky with the version of MacENC that we have today while we wait for Rich to enhance the possibilities?

John
Things Change.
Try to cope.

[bobetter]

When measuring and it's less than 1NM, it shows in yards. I can't relate to yards. Consider decimal miles (e.g. 0.1NM, 0.5NM).
!

I think you will find that in the Marine world (US, anyway..) distances less than 1nm are expressed in yards rather than decimal nm. For example, LNM that reference distance, transmissons on VHF bridge to bridge regarding distance, security zone sizes, courses that include legs less than 1 nm, etc. etc. If we all speak the same language, misunderstandings are much less likely to occur. If the nav SW we use also speaks that language then the need for interpretation and translation of it is negated.

[Coomkeen]

In Europe, and I think much of the rest of the world because of the general acceptance of British Admiralty charts and sailing directions, less that 1NM is usually in cables. A cable being 0.1NM.
So I'd go with what I'm used to - decimal miles.

Ron

[bobetter]

In Europe, and I think much of the rest of the world because of the general acceptance of British Admiralty charts and sailing directions, less that 1NM is usually in cables. A cable being 0.1NM.
So I'd go with what I'm used to - decimal miles.

Ron

I disagree. In any UK Local Notice to Mariners, distances of less than 1knm are referenced to meters. While I've only sailed in European waters once (from The Netherlands to Newport, RI via France, Spain and The Azores) any VHF conversation I had on that trip referenced meters. I've also done quite a bit of sailing in the Caribbean where if you used the term "Cable", you'd soon have a pile of electrical wire sitting in the cockpit. : > )
While I've not seen this in fact, I would suspect that in the UK as in the US any security zones around high risk vessels (navy, LNG carriers, etc.) are also referenced to meters. Indeed, MacENC does have the ability to measure meters or yards. Check out the preferences panel.

I think that perhaps this discussion has run into an area affected by the transition from paper chart navigation to electronic navigation. In addition to being able to perform all the traditional navigational tasks expected of paper charts (hence distances over 1 knm being given as 1.xx knm), electronic navigation gives us the ability to measure with much more resolution distances RIGHT ON THE CHART between, for example, us and other vessels or us and navaids without using other range/bearing measurement tools. If I am in the vicinity of another vessel that has a 300 yard security zone around it, I would much rather be able to measure that 300 yards rather than see 0.18 knm. Evidently, the various authorities feel the same way since they use yards/meters.

[Coomkeen]

Fair enough.
However, I have some recent Admiralty Sailing Directions and the Cruising Association Handbook which both use cables.
We were talking about Europe here, not the Caribbean.
Any coastguard, for example, around here would know what you meant by cables. It is after all just decimal miles.
I wouldn't have thought it was such a difficult thing to do, to have the option of decimal miles. In fact, from a programming angle, it's easier than yards or metres.

Yes, some of this is due to the change from paper to electronic.
However, I really do hope everyone still carries paper charts as well!
And uses them.

Ron

PS, I've still got some old charts marked in fathoms for depth.
Still valid as the land hasn't moved.

[Coomkeen]

As a quick PS to my last post:

It would seem, from a scan around, that the norm is for distances less than half a nautical mile to be expressed in metres.
Over half a mile is in decimal, e.g. 0.8 nm.

I can't lay my hands on the relevant Admiralty book at the moment, but many navigational directions and even race instructions seem to adhere to this policy.

Ron

[bobetter]

Fair enough.
However, I have some recent Admiralty Sailing Directions and the Cruising Association Handbook which both use cables.
We were talking about Europe here, not the Caribbean.
Any coastguard, for example, around here would know what you meant by cables. It is after all just decimal miles.

Yes, I have been doing some poking around the last day or so and have seen the UK Sailing Directions referencing "Cables". Dunno if the Coasties over on this side of the Pond would understand, but I feel sure that your guys would be able to deal with "Yards" or "Meters". In this case the lowest common denominator would seem to be yards/meters in terms of universal understanding. I also discovered that the IHO uses meters as the accuracy metric for horizontal dimensions.

Yes, some of this is due to the change from paper to electronic.
However, I really do hope everyone still carries paper charts as well!
And uses them.

Yeah, and as we all know, change is hard and takes time. I, too, always use paper one of many other means of navigation. As I'm sure you are aware, tho, there are instances where paper is no longer required if your systems meet very stringent requirements. As a matter of fact, I believe there are a number of US Naval (and Royal Navy too, I believe) vessels recently commissioned that are certified "paperless". That is the future.

PS, I've still got some old charts marked in fathoms for depth.
Still valid as the land hasn't moved.

as do I, but I use ENCs and when overlaying a raster chart on top of a cel, one can query the vector underneath and see feet or meters.

[bobetter]

hit submit by accident.....

so, for purposes of this increasingly interesting discussion, do you think it makes sense to continue the use of "Cable" as this electronic transition unfolds? Specifically, does the UKHO intend to do so?

[Coomkeen]

Yes we have to be able to use all different sorts of 'navaids', including sometimes things like hearing gulls cries echoing from the cliffs in fog.

You do hear some quite humorous 'measurements' here sometimes like "It can't be more than a Hurling pitch away..."
Officially that's somewhere between 130 and 145 metres.

But, not sure I like the idea of the paperless ship. Bit the like paperless office. Lets hope they don't use MSWindows!

I can't see anyone continuing, long term, the use of cables, although the term sounds a bit archaic it's just decimal miles, which sounds a lot more modern.
Wish I could find the relevant book, but it does seem as if less than half a mile is given in metres over here.
Actually I'd like to switch between the two as distance traveled on the gps display is in decimal miles, so reading the sailing directions (say) and having to add 400 metres is a bit confusing.

Ron

[bobetter]

I find myself more often than not verifying a GPS derived chartplotter position with at least 2 other visual or aural marks taken off a paper chart. I like the image of your using gulls cries' echoing off cliffs, no cliffs in my neck of the woods, tho. I do picture an American football field (a convenient standard of 100 yds) when judging distance.

A paperless ship is a little scary, especially when one realizes that there are nuclear weapons aboard.....

Yes, having 1 or more instruments' metrics being different really points out the issue, doesn't it? I think, tho, that as more and more commercial shipping outfits adopt ECDIS completely, the various authorities will eventually arrive at a measurement standard and "Cables", etc. will disappear.

[stevemac00]

GPSNavx - thanks for the reply. Another case of RTFM. As to decimal miles, I've learned something from the discussion and have respect for tradition in most cases but I'd be surprised if the average sailor like myself can relate well to yards if it's more than a 100.

[Coomkeen]

Well chaps, just got back from 3 days sailing around the islands locally, and during that time there was a navigation warning read out, several times, by Valencia Coastguard Radio.
Someone had found a mine, and the warning went:
"A bouy has been established 3 cables South of Galley Head, with an exclusion zone of threequarters of a mile."

So there we have it.

Still using cables and fractional miles, not even decimal or metres.

Ron

[bobetter]

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Wouldn't it have been much less confusing if the warning had been, " A bouy has been established 600 meters South of Galley Head, with an exclusion zone of 1400 meters." (hope I got that math right....I had to go thru a conversion process...:wink. You could even plot that directly on MacENC.

[Coomkeen]

Well I'm not so sure.

3 cables is easy to plot on the paper chart, and 3/4 of a mile is 0.75. Again easy to draw a ring that size.
And threequarters of a mile means more to me in practical terms than 1400 metres.

OK, there is a metre scale down the edge as well, but when you're used to working in lat and long...

They blew the mine up by the way.

Excuse my ignorance here, but can you draw a ring centred on a point with a given radius, in MacENC?

Ron

[bobetter]

Well, the list is titled "MacENC & GPSNavX", so I'm not sure how appropriate introducing a discussion re: traditional paper charting methods really is....

Having said that, migrating those methods over to electronic navigation is completely appropriate. MacENC/GPSNavX have a fairly primitive "Annotation" tool. With it, one can draw a boundary around objects, put an "X" on a spot, draw a kinda straight line, etc. Perhaps Rich would entertain suggestions as to what improvements users would like to see in the annotation tool. Being able to draw a box or a circle could be very helpful. Of course, the size would have to be speced in yards/meters.

Coomkeen, are you using MacENC or GPSNavX?

[Coomkeen]

Well yes, I agree about not discussing paper charts.

But my point was that the nav warning was in appropriate language to be understood by everyone who heard it (vhf coast of Southern Ireland).
Migrating from one system to another usually means, to start with anyway, being able to use both systems at once.
So the new electronic method has to cope with input that is compatible with the old system.

Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, decimal miles, whether expressed 0.2 or 2 cables, is more logical than to suddenly use a non-related measurement below a certain distance.
It's interesting in a way that the development of both nautical miles and metres was based upon measurements of the earth.

I am using PassagePlus at the moment, but am watching MacENC developments closely.
I came to use PassagePlus due to already having some British Admiralty digital charts, and PassagePlus was listed on the Admiralty site as being compatible.

Yes a facility to draw a box or circle would be very handy.

Ron.

[bobetter]

But my point was that the nav warning was in appropriate language to be understood by everyone who heard it (vhf coast of Southern Ireland).
Migrating from one system to another usually means, to start with anyway, being able to use both systems at once.
So the new electronic method has to cope with input that is compatible with the old system.

Yes, I agree, to an extent. But as I'm sure you know, we've been using electronic nav tools for some time now (I've been using the Mac for close to 10 years). The migration basics are pretty much complete. As to being understood by everyone, I doubt very much that with the exception of the commercial maritime community, many sailors in the US are conversant with "Cables". With all due respect to the originator of this thread, most everybody on the water (worldwide) understands meters/yards.

Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, decimal miles, whether expressed 0.2 or 2 cables, is more logical than to suddenly use a non-related measurement below a certain distance.
It's interesting in a way that the development of both nautical miles and metres was based upon measurements of the earth.

I don't think it is sudden at all nor is it non-related. The use of yards/meters is well established. BTW, what do you do with distances of less than 1 cable? 1/4 cable? 1/8 cable? The bottom line is what works for you is best, the problem occurs, of course, when everybody else is using something else. If I ever end up sailing the waters of Southern Ireland, tho, I will have some sort of Cable to Meters converter close at hand...

I am using PassagePlus at the moment, but am watching MacENC developments closely.
I came to use PassagePlus due to already having some British Admiralty digital charts, and PassagePlus was listed on the Admiralty site as being compatible.

Have you had occasion to use ENCs yet? Here in the States we are very lucky to have NOAA distribute them free. I purchased some Bermuda ENCs (Admiralty) last year, man-o-man, crazy expensive!! I think there is a demo available of MacENC, the NOAA ENCs are a free download that the demo will run. One of the great benefits of ENCs is the ease with which they are updated, both by the Chartmaker and the end user. I would bet that that mine (and it's buoy) was on the ENC the week it was discovered.

Yes a facility to draw a box or circle would be very handy.

yup, very (very) handy.....probably not all that easy to implement.

[Coomkeen]

I won't prolong this discussion too much.

By 'sudden' I just meant that as you reduce the distance it 'suddenly' turns into yards/metres.

There are many sailors in Europe who don't have electronic/computer navigation. Not because they are 'out of date' or anything, but just because it's expensive (much more so than paper), unreliable (PC's crash, we don't all use Macs), it needs a power supply, and other factors.
Some engineless boats I know of don't use it. They are mostly traditional wooden boats where solar panels would look out of place.

There's not normally any need to quote distances of less than a cable (0.1 miles) in any formal way. People might say yards as that's what they are probably more used to, or metres now we are all supposed to be metric.

Yes undoubtedly in the US people use electronic nav a lot. But then they use yards too and not metres. And miles on the roads and not kilometres. So it's horses for courses.
Here people understand cables and relate to the distance.

No I've never used ENCs.
I stick to Admiralty charts, as updated by the UKHO and Irish Authorities.
Why?
Well just because they are the best available in this area (UK Ireland).
And even then they are not totally accurate. Some surveys go back to the 1800s, and people are always finding uncharted rocks, usually the hard way!

I'll have another look at ENCs though.

The mine was blown up a day after it's discovery.

Having only sailed in this area for 2 years now (previously UK with Atlantic excursions) I'm starting to think that forward looking echo sounders are worth looking at :wink:

Ron

[adjuvantjfoster]

Having only sailed in this area for 2 years now (previously UK with Atlantic excursions) I'm starting to think that forward looking echo sounders are worth looking at :wink:

Ron

http://www.interphase-tech.com/iScan180.htm

is my favorite.

It has NEMA 0183 depth output.

(Wish List content follows)

Hey Rich how about integrating this with MacENC?

John

[GPSNavX]

MacENC and GPSNavX already support NMEA depth among many others..

http://www.gpsnavx.com/html/nmea.html

[adjuvantjfoster]

MacENC and GPSNavX already support NMEA depth among many others..

http://www.gpsnavx.com/html/nmea.html

I am clear on that concept. What I am wondering about is if the NEMA 0183 depth output for the forward looking sonar contains enough information for MacENC to be able to support a window with a view that is similar to their display?

My guess is that a brief communication, developer to developer, would answer that question.

If their output stream is a simple single point of depth, well, that is aleady supported.

If their output stream has all the depth information seen on their display, well then please add my hope wish to you own wish list.

Since their display supports a second display as a hardware connection, perhaps there is an alternative way to generate a window in MacENC that steps around the complexity of decoding and displaying their NEMA 0183 data stream.

John

[GPSNavX]

A quick read of Interphase Scan 180 manual shows it does support NMEA data depth out ($__DBT). NMEA data depth only provides for a single digital depth reading. MacENC/GPSNavX can display that depth reading in the instruments panel.

In order to get the actual sonar scan in a window on your Macs display would be to use a video to digital converter such as Elgato Systems EyeTV Hybrid..

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=pro...yetvhybrid

I have an EyeTV for my iMac and it works great with all sorts of video sources plus it includes a TV tuner. Plugs right into the USB port. You could even make recordings.

[bstamerjon]

Enable shrinking the boat icon to insertion point size.
Enable heading vector in scaled length (vs. time)