[ActiveCaptain]

I tried to love iNavX today while traveling along the ICW in southern Florida. While my wife was piloting I'd look ahead to see what was coming up, etc. It's loads of fun.

But here's what I don't understand how to do. I find it the most frustrating thing about iNavX and it strikes me that perhaps I don't know how to use it. So much of the ICW charts are thin strips. You come to the end and then want to go to the next strip. How exactly do you do this in iNavX. What I found myself doing was pressing the (-) to go to a less detailed chart. Then pan that to where I think the border was...then (+) to get a more detailed chart. There are some issues:

- It's easy to "miss" and then have to start over. It tends to want to re-position the chart when it opens a new chart and makes it even more frustrating.

- It's not obvious which chart should be selected next. I don't understand why it can't just select the next most detailed chart. Why do I need that list of charts? I said "zoom in" just zoom in!


So what am I missing. How do you pan from one chart edge to the next? Surely this is a very, very common thing.

[ActiveCaptain]

I don't understand why my support request isn't being addressed. It's a serious question. If I can't get the question answered, it's definitely time for me to write a review in the app store for the $50 product that I purchased.

[GPSNavX]

No intent to disregard the question, I just wanted to see if I could reproduce what you reported. I found the "+" and "-" buttons on the Chart view worked as intended.

The "+" button will present a list of all the larger scale charts that intersects with the center of the Chart View. They are sorted largest scale to smallest scale. So to get the best detail, select the first chart in the list.

The "-" button will present a list of all smaller scale charts that intersects with the center of the Chart view. They are sorted largest scale to smallest scale. So to get the least detail pick the last chart in the list.

In Just about every area NOAA RNCs cover there are multiple scales of charts available and multiple overlaps. Charts rarely exactly border each other, but instead overlap.

One possible option would be to plot the chart borders. This might assist in seeing if there are charts overlapping, but it also might just clutter on the small iPhone screen.

iNavX will automatically switch from chart to chart as the GPS position changes if "Pos. Icon Kept Visible" is On in the Chart Setup.

If you have a suggestion for a better or another method for switching to another chart please provide it.

[ActiveCaptain]

Here's what you should do. Pick the highest detail chart for the ICW - let's say south of West Palm Beach. The icw charts there are narrow strips just showing the ICW and the area immediately adjacent. Pan down the ICW as if you're looking ahead - a pretty common thing to do. You'll come to the edge of the chart segment and will naturally want to move to the adjacent chart and continue looking ahead. Try that a few times and see what it's like. Make sure to even try it in a place where the high res chart is skewed differently. It's even more fun then because you lose perspective of where you are since there's no rotation. I think you'll understand the issue pretty quickly.

This type of panning is very common when traveling along the ICW.

[AugustH]

This type of panning is very common when traveling along the ICW.

And I would think that most of the time the panning is being done on a screen that's a touch bigger than 460x320.

<soapbox>
It seems odd to me to threaten to write a bad review for an app when it doesn't act like you expect it to when compared with <insert favorite navigation app here>, when the iPhone is so much different than a computer. Yes it runs programs, but it's first a phone - small screen, small battery, small keyboard - key word is SMALL. Yes panning around is a pain, but it's a pain on every program that tries to show more information than the screen allows. Secret of Monkey Island is a nice game, on the small screen it takes a lot of finger swipes to walk around. Do I blame the game? Do I blame the phone? No I blame myself for having unrealistic expectations. Do I not play the game? Heck no, it's fun!

So my point being, don't blame the app because the iPhone isn't what you expect or want. Change what you expect from the iPhone. Hmm almost sounds Zen, doesn't it?
</soapbox>

[ActiveCaptain]

It seems odd to me to threaten to write a bad review for an app when it doesn't act like you expect...

I don't think you actually read my post that you're labeling as a "threat". The reason I wrote what I did was that Mr. Ray had responded to multiple other questions but had ignored mine. He has an excellent record of being totally responsive and I'm not sure why he was ignoring my question. He explained it and I'm satisfied. You seem to be looking for a fight where none exists.

Go back and read the posting and you'll see that it is quite clear what I was complaining about.

[bobetter]

The easiest solution to your "problem" is to use the Navionics Mobile charts from X-Traverse. Very cost effective and no need to "pick" charts.

[ActiveCaptain]

The easiest solution to your "problem" is to use the Navionics Mobile charts from X-Traverse.

I have multiple Navionics iPhone apps too but there are many times and places when the raster charts are better - that's why I want both apps.

Another solution would be to quilt the raster charts in iNavX which would be a very welcome addition.

[bobetter]

The easiest solution to your "problem" is to use the Navionics Mobile charts from X-Traverse.

I have multiple Navionics iPhone apps too but there are many times and places when the raster charts are better - that's why I want both apps.

Another solution would be to quilt the raster charts in iNavX which would be a very welcome addition.

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think you don't realize that Navionics charts will run in iNavX. A bit of confusion exists regarding the Navionics charts on an iPhone. Navionics makes charting apps (available from iTunes). Navionics also makes charts that will run in iNavX. These charts are available from X-Traverse and are downloadable thru iNavX.

Use Navionics Mobile charts with iNavX rather than raster.

I'm probably missing something, but given the physical display limitations of an iPhone under what circumstances do you find raster a better choice versus vector?

[bobetter]

The easiest solution to your "problem" is to use the Navionics Mobile charts from X-Traverse.

I have multiple Navionics iPhone apps too but there are many times and places when the raster charts are better - that's why I want both apps.

Another solution would be to quilt the raster charts in iNavX which would be a very welcome addition.

Not wanting to beat a very dead horse, but this from Navionics perhaps explains the situation better than my previous post...


Q.>What is the difference between the free NOAA data and Navionics Mobile maps in the US?
A: Navionics award winning cartography provides:
-the most comprehensive marine and recreational port data available.
- the best available accuracy.
- the best quality and most detail.
- seamless vector charts providing clear, uncluttered detail at every zoom level, opposed to raster charts which present a single image of a scanned paper chart.
- Mobile applications are specifically designed to run on mobile smartphones.
- free Mobile updates with additional new features to existing users who are automatically notified through their iTunes account.

Q.>I have purchased the iNavX application from iTunes, do I purchase the Navionics chart for my iNavX directly from iTunes?
A. No. The Navionics Mobile Apps that work with your iNavX application are only available through iNavX and X-traverse. The Navionics Mobile Apps purchased through iTunes are bundled and contain both the Navionics Application and the Charts for the region you selected. The Navionics Mobile Charts available on iNavX/X-traverse websites contain only the charts to work with the iNavX Application.

[ActiveCaptain]

I think you don't realize that Navionics charts will run in iNavX.

No, I totally know about X-Traverse and Navionics on iNavX. Since I already own Navionics products, I can already view the vector charts and I don't really see anything that iNavX provides that I use in addition to that. In fact, I think that the integrated tide/current display in the Navionics product is much nicer than the iNavX/AyeTides integration. Since the Navionics product costs the same as AyeTides, I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would buy AyeTides.

I'm probably missing something, but given the physical display limitations of an iPhone under what circumstances do you find raster a better choice versus vector?

There are a variety of times where I much prefer the raster charts. I like having all of the data displayed as created by a cartographer. They've spent their lifetimes at perfecting how to most clearly display information - bridges, obstructions, etc. that are often very hidden by vector charts. In addition, many of the depth features get hidden quickly as you zoom out with Navionics. Sometimes this is a good thing - other times it's annoying because I can't get the view that I want. I just like raster charts. Always have, always will.

[ActiveCaptain]

You updated your post around my reply...

I think that Navionics charts and their data are excellent. I've put in writing in articles on our own web site that boat owners with iPhones are crazy if they don't purchase their iPhone product. I do take exception with their statement, "the most comprehensive marine and recreational port data available". It's just not true. ActiveCaptain is both more comprehensive and more available (since it's free). And if you add "accurate", we're ahead there too.

There are times when I just like the raster charts perhaps because I learned to navigate with paper charts. In 20 years, raster charts might just go the way of the sextant. For now, I just like the look of them.

[bobetter]

OK, I would tend to agree with you regarding the warm and fuzzy raster chart (I too learned to navigate with paper) but the reality is that vector is navigation moving forward. NOAA (or other's) will not be supporting or creating raster in 20 years, that is a pretty sure bet. To address your original post; writing code for new hardware (iPhones, etc.) to optimize raster quilting would not be very cost effective for any developer (are you or anybody you know doing it?) nor would the end result be as effective as running vector on a small screen. Creating SENCs as Navionics has done is a viable solution for handhelds, trying to get full-blown computer functionality on a phone is not-if anybody does it, I'll be among the first to adopt it.

[ActiveCaptain]

...to optimize raster quilting would not be very cost effective for any developer (are you or anybody you know doing it?) nor would the end result be as effective as running vector on a small screen....

This is a very healthy and interesting debate. First, yes, I know of multiple developers besides myself who are developing raster and vector quilting code. Have you seen our NOAA charts in our X beta? How about MaxSea Time Zero's unbelievable handling of raster and vector data?

The raster vs vector debate has gone on for a long time. Both are important and I'm not convinced that raster is going away for a while. I'd even expect to see vector charts rasterized for viewing in the future.

Raster vs vector is the very common computer tradeoff between time and space. While vector data is certainly smaller, it takes longer to display it. Raster data is much larger but is very quick to display if the data is organized in a way to display it (something that iNavX isn't optimized for right now since it appears to go back to the KAP data often which is line based). If memory size is an issue then vector data is better. But it's 2010 and memory is cheap and easy to get. I'd rather have speed over memory savings in today's world. Instant zoom and pan is more important in my opinion than saving a gigabyte or so of memory.

[bobetter]

...to optimize raster quilting would not be very cost effective for any developer (are you or anybody you know doing it?) nor would the end result be as effective as running vector on a small screen....

This is a very healthy and interesting debate. First, yes, I know of multiple developers besides myself who are developing raster and vector quilting code. Have you seen our NOAA charts in our X beta? How about MaxSea Time Zero's unbelievable handling of raster and vector data?

The raster vs vector debate has gone on for a long time. Both are important and I'm not convinced that raster is going away for a while. I'd even expect to see vector charts rasterized for viewing in the future.

Raster vs vector is the very common computer tradeoff between time and space. While vector data is certainly smaller, it takes longer to display it. Raster data is much larger but is very quick to display if the data is organized in a way to display it (something that iNavX isn't optimized for right now since it appears to go back to the KAP data often which is line based). If memory size is an issue then vector data is better. But it's 2010 and memory is cheap and easy to get. I'd rather have speed over memory savings in today's world. Instant zoom and pan is more important in my opinion than saving a gigabyte or so of memory.

I was talking about quilting rasters on an iPhone (please remember, this is the iNavX forum) as were you in your original post. I don't think there is a benefit, nor do I think we will see it happen on the platform as it exists now. Quilting rasters on a COMPUTER is pretty well established and not really a big deal anymore.

I would be happy to test your iPhone navigation app that quilts rasters (or anyone else's for that matter...)) when you release it. Got an ETA?

[ActiveCaptain]

I was talking about quilting rasters on an iPhone (please remember, this is the iNavX forum)...

I'm talking about quilting on the iPhone and iPad too. Why would the size of the screen matter? It's about usability and a single control for the zoom dimensionality.

[bobetter]

I was talking about quilting rasters on an iPhone (please remember, this is the iNavX forum)...

I'm talking about quilting on the iPhone and iPad too. Why would the size of the screen matter? It's about usability and a single control for the zoom dimensionality.

Screen size dictates the size of the package. Size of the package dictates memory size, battery capacity and processor. These all dictate the devices' ability to compute. It takes less "computer ability" to display SENC vector charts versus quilting rasters.

an interesting article by Nigel Calder (a bit dated but still related to this discussion) on raster vs vector with an intriguing comparison of raster vs vector on the ICW....

http://www.oceannavigator.com/ME2/dirmod...2FDB729363

[ActiveCaptain]

Bottom line of this thread...

Since Rich hasn't responded further, I assume he's saying that there isn't some way to pan chart-to-chart with the raster charts that I missed. The only real way to do it is to go to a less detailed chart ("-" button), pan over, and then go to a more detailed chart ("+" button) and hope you hit the chart that was where you wanted to get to.

Rich, honest, do this a few times, especially with skewed charts. It's about the worst expression of chart usability that I've ever experienced on any software like this. It needs to be fixed.